Inexcusable Negligence

[Christina]

I watched the Animal Emergency show on the television the other night. It is real life events from the Lort Smith Animal Hospital in Melbourne. A woman brought in a pregnant 12yo pug who was having problems giving birth. The vets decided she should have a caesarean. She died on the operating table because she had an allergic reaction to the anaesthetic. Two? pups were saved and the program showed the owner with these cute newborn pups who would now have to be handraised and insinuated what a wonderful person she was for being prepared for all the hard work this would involve.

What interested me and what is relevant to this thread is that no-one blamed the vets for the death of the elderly pug nor did anyone blame the owner for allowing such an old dog to become pregnant. Being DOL sensitised I blamed the owner. :)

Why do we always have to blame someone? Why not just accept that people, and that includes all of us, make mistakes?

Well its TV programme & they would have had to have the pug owners consent so they are hardly likely to say You stupid person why did you let your 12 year old dog get pregnant especially if it had difficult times in the past & of course you have to hand raise the pups, it is your responsibility & what any breeder does.

Yes people do make mistakes, we are all only human. It does annoy me though when they try & blame someone else if they are the one who made the mistake.

[Sheilaheel02]

I will preface this by saying I WORSHIP my Vet and trust her experience, skill and opinions. I have been going to the practice for about 20 years and they know all my pets well. They saved Sheila's life years ago when another vet had no idea what the problem was (bowel obstruction). They also diagnosed and treated my cat for cancer after a different large practice did tests and x-rays and reported that there wasn't anything wrong with him but that he was "just a cranky old cat!" I think I pay a premium though. To have my young Cattle Dog bitch desexed and chipped it was over $400. To have my JRT chipped, desexed and a tooth removed was over $700.

S

[nawnim]

Christina and Phyria at first I blamed the pug's owner too and I also questioned the competence of the vets because I have owned boxers in the past and a vet told me that there were some anaesthetics boxers should not be given because they might have an allergic reaction. What surprised me was that the pug owner and the program producers did not seem to expect viewers to be negative in their judgements. I thought about it later and I realised that I have never owned a female dog that was not desexed. For all I know the pug owner may have been left with the dog after someone else did not want it. She may not have been able to afford desexing. She may not approve of desexing. She may have been told desexing was dangerous in such an elderly dog. Maybe she couldn't care less about the dog's welfare. I don't know. Then maybe the anaesthetic the vet used was usually perfectly safe and the dog's reaction was not expected. I don't know.

Then I thought about this thread. Why are people so quick to blame? We all make mistakes. Hopefully we learn from them. It's not helpful to blame others for our mistakes but neither should we be hard on ourselves because that leads to depression. From memory (I can't see the OP from here) the vet expressed remorse. The owner of the cat blamed the vet but perhaps he was so upset about the loss of his cat in such tragic circumstance he was not thinking straight.

Why does someone always have to be blamed and condemned?

ETA Why is this thread titled 'inexcusable negligence'?

Edited June 26, 2013 by nawnim

[trifecta]

Firstly, I'm very sorry that this man has lost his beloved cat, whatever the circumstances.

I've had some pretty dodgy service and diagnosis from one of the biggest vet clinics in Canberra with two of my own beloved animals. Sometimes you get what you pay for and sometimes you don't.

Jan and Ella have always been amazingly supportive and provided excellent care for my rescue dogs over the years. They've saved the life of more than one and not required the deeds to my house in return. Those of you who remember Stormin' Norman the red ACD pup from DAS know he became gravely ill and I thought I might lose him. Ella personally nursed him back to health so he could go on to find the best home in Gunning. When I've had to farewell a rescue dog Jan was always been honest, practical and empathetic.

For a time we were lucky enough to have the services of another practical rural vet out this way. However, a shocking experience with one client meant we lost her which is really unfortunate. She always provided high quality care for my horses and her fee was often less than what the other vets charge just for travel.

I appreciate that some clinics have some pretty expensive diagnostic equipment and they are a business which needs to cover costs, but a visit to the vet these days, especially in the Canberra area, is getting to the point of being simply unaffordable for a lot of people. People will say "Oh if you can't afford animals you shouldn't have them" and I understand that viewpoint, however, it's a sad day when we can't share our lives with a pet because it's one luxury that's too expensive. We should also never be so arrogant to think that we will never age or fall on hard times and need the help of Vets like these.

S

You have hit the nail on the head, Sheilaheel!

Jan is the only community vet left in Canberra since Peter Burgess retired; charging & advocating treatment in acknowledgement of an owner's income, recognising the value of a companion animal to someone who is down on their luck or homeless.

You know with horses here in the Canberra area we are literally held to ransom. I used to work at the big practice on the Barton Hwy & I know how they operate. The only other option is fast becoming like them.

[OSoSwift]

The owner of the cat blamed the vet but perhaps he was so upset about the loss of his cat in such tragic circumstance he was not thinking straight.

From experience I can tell you often the vet is blamed for the death of an animal - be it their fault or not. Event he receptionist or vet nurse can be blamed. People are hurting, they have suffered a great loss and they lash out. It is quite common. It also can cause great stress for those in the firing line but is something they have to try to cope with and not take personally, although that can be hard at times.

[JulesP]

I watched the Animal Emergency show on the television the other night. It is real life events from the Lort Smith Animal Hospital in Melbourne. A woman brought in a pregnant 12yo pug who was having problems giving birth. The vets decided she should have a caesarean. She died on the operating table because she had an allergic reaction to the anaesthetic. Two? pups were saved and the program showed the owner with these cute newborn pups who would now have to be handraised and insinuated what a wonderful person she was for being prepared for all the hard work this would involve.

What interested me and what is relevant to this thread is that no-one blamed the vets for the death of the elderly pug nor did anyone blame the owner for allowing such an old dog to become pregnant. Being DOL sensitised I blamed the owner. :)

Why do we always have to blame someone? Why not just accept that people, and that includes all of us, make mistakes?

I think, considering the fact that the dog had had difficult labours in the past and had no live offspring, you are completely justified in blaming the owner.

I certainly blame her.

If your beloved pet reaches a certain age and you know she can't bare a litter of puppies safely, why would you not have her desexed?!

Sometimes you can't desex a dog for medical reasons.

[Akayla]

Jan has always been described as a bush vet in the circles I travel in and I think it suits her. She is very practical.

She is the only vet for some people because as others have said she is much cheaper. I also know people who have had terrible experiences with her.

I remember when she desexed a friends cat on said friends kitchen bench :laugh:

I dont think any ill of Jan and she has been around for years and years and has quite the reputation. I wouldnt recommend her for anything serious personally but she does provide that service.

In this case I dont think she can be blamed given the owner did not do what was recommended.

Luckily I have a fantastic vet at the other Hall vet. He is awesome.

[sandgrubber]

I have known urban vets to make some pretty awful mistakes, too. Eg, a a friend had a Ceasar done: they sewed the bitch up with a pup still inside her. Fortunately, the bitch survived, though the pup died. Or another vet who said 'sure we can take you' on an emergency Ceasar and then left the dog waiting for two hours (instead of referring on to another vet) cause they already had two operations in progress (three of nine pups died). Vets make mistakes, especially when they get called on to make decisions at all hours.

I think the OP should remove the Inexcusable Negligence from the title of the original post. That is a criminal charge and could be considered slander. What is described is human error, with blame to be borne by both the vet and the cat owner.

As for desexing on the kitchen bench, I used to go to a mobile vet who was quite happy doing this for male dogs. So? They castrate livestock out in open paddocks.

[keetamouse]

I have known urban vets to make some pretty awful mistakes, too. Eg, a a friend had a Ceasar done: they sewed the bitch up with a pup still inside her. Fortunately, the bitch survived, though the pup died. Or another vet who said 'sure we can take you' on an emergency Ceasar and then left the dog waiting for two hours (instead of referring on to another vet) cause they already had two operations in progress (three of nine pups died). Vets make mistakes, especially when they get called on to make decisions at all hours.

I think the OP should remove the Inexcusable Negligence from the title of the original post. That is a criminal charge and could be considered slander. What is described is human error, with blame to be borne by both the vet and the cat owner.

As for desexing on the kitchen bench, I used to go to a mobile vet who was quite happy doing this for male dogs. So? They castrate livestock out in open paddocks.

We did say Jan was and is a country vet :) and that's what they do.

Maree

CPR

[tdierikx]

Give me a vet that understands that not all clients are happy to be overserviced or overcharged any day. I prefer mine to give advice when needed, and not try to sell me stuff I don't need at every opportunity.

I'd go for a good old fashioned country vet over most suburban vets every time.

T.

[RazorBlade]

I have known urban vets to make some pretty awful mistakes, too. Eg, a a friend had a Ceasar done: they sewed the bitch up with a pup still inside her. Fortunately, the bitch survived, though the pup died. Or another vet who said 'sure we can take you' on an emergency Ceasar and then left the dog waiting for two hours (instead of referring on to another vet) cause they already had two operations in progress (three of nine pups died). Vets make mistakes, especially when they get called on to make decisions at all hours.

I think the OP should remove the Inexcusable Negligence from the title of the original post. That is a criminal charge and could be considered slander. What is described is human error, with blame to be borne by both the vet and the cat owner.

As for desexing on the kitchen bench, I used to go to a mobile vet who was quite happy doing this for male dogs. So? They castrate livestock out in open paddocks.

We did say Jan was and is a country vet :) and that's what they do.

Maree

CPR

Must have been raining outside to warrant her using the kitchen bench. She used to do castrations on the tailgate of her ute. :-)

[tdierikx]

If you've ever seen a castration done, you'd not be too shocked by a vet doing it somewhere other than in clinic... fastest op I've ever seen done...

T.

[OSoSwift]

I don't see why "she's a country vet" keeps coming into it.

[Akayla]

They were pretty shocked. They just rang a vet and expected to go in. I never said it was bad only that it stuck with me?

I was using it as an example. Something that sums up the situation for me.

She is what she is. Its no secret. If people are comfortable with that its alot cheaper.

My vet has never held my pets to ransom. Nothing but a lovely bloke who never takes advantage. Exactly how a vet should be.

[sandgrubber]

1372420987[/url]' post='6238710']

They were pretty shocked. They just rang a vet and expected to go in. I never said it was bad only that it stuck with me?

I was using it as an example. Something that sums up the situation for me.

She is what she is. Its no secret. If people are comfortable with that its alot cheaper.

My vet has never held my pets to ransom. Nothing but a lovely bloke who never takes advantage. Exactly how a vet should be.

I think it's a great example of what differentiates a country vet from a city vet.

[tdierikx]

Personally, I reckon all vets should do a rotation in a rural clinic as part of their training... probably wouldn't have so many duds that way.

T.

[keetamouse]

Personally, I reckon all vets should do a rotation in a rural clinic as part of their training... probably wouldn't have so many duds that way.

T.

Ditto

[Alyosha]

Is giving off-label recommendations, over the phone - for veterinary use of human medications - part of being a "country vet" now?

[tdierikx]

Is giving off-label recommendations, over the phone - for veterinary use of human medications - part of being a "country vet" now?

No - but it shows that the vet is thinking outside the box in order to provide relief for the animal until it can be seen by a vet during business hours. Country vets understand people not being able to drop everything and get their animal to a clinic at all hours.

This vet advised a dosage of ibuprofen that would not be dangerous to give to the cat in question, and would give it some pain relief. Remember that the OWNER was the one to quadruple the dose... not the vet.

T.

[sandgrubber]

Is giving off-label recommendations, over the phone - for veterinary use of human medications - part of being a "country vet" now?

I'm fine with having a country vet recommend benedryl for bee-sting. Or say that aspirin can be used in a pinch for a dog in pain. Or help breeders adjust dosages to let them use much cheaper livestock meds with same active ingredients for use on dogs. Or, for that matter, point out where dog meds can be used by people. I've encountered all of these with good results.

I agree that the nurofen for a cat probably isn't good and if there's a basis for making the recommendation (eg., nurofen does relieve pain and if you keep the dosage small enough, does no harm), it should be accompanied by stern warnings about not OD'ing.

But most of us don't have our wits about us 24/7 and all of us make mistakes.

There is a lot of crap in the official veterinary pharmacopia. I'm glad some vets don't buy into it and continue to think critically. Eg, having owned a vineyard where the dogs scoffed up ripe grapes to their heart's content, and having discussed this on vineyard forums, I'd say the extreme cautions about dogs and raisins are alarmist. A small percentage of dogs probably do have horrid reactions to grapes. But many many vineyard people have dogs and let their dogs eat grapes. No one in the networks I've traversed seems to have problems with this. Another example: extreme cautions about not letting your dog eat bones. Oui vey!

Edited July 1, 2013 by sandgrubber