Breeder Concerns - Desexing At 8 Weeks

[Kokoro]

Is it usual for breeders to desex pups prior to sending them to their new homes at 8 weeks? I understand the concern of pups being bred from against breeders wishes but to me 8 weeks seems very young and perhaps not in the best interest of the pup. I am no expert, just a humble pet owner. Should I avoid this breeder or is this acceptable practice?

[Jemmy]

Everything I have read says prior to 5 months presents a high risk to normal growth, after 5 months still a risk but lessened, and least risk once at maturity. I would be very hesitant to purchase a pup desexed at that age... what breed is it?

[VizslaMomma]

Is it usual for breeders to desex pups prior to sending them to their new homes at 8 weeks? I understand the concern of pups being bred from against breeders wishes but to me 8 weeks seems very young and perhaps not in the best interest of the pup. I am no expert, just a humble pet owner. Should I avoid this breeder or is this acceptable practice?

It does depend on the breed I was told.

[Kokoro]

The breed is English Cocker Spaniel. It is a male pup and apparently "only one stich involved and very quick recovery"

Edited November 12, 2014 by Kokoro

[Dame Aussie]

It can be done safely at that age with no issues. Growth can be affected (probably very minimally) however, so if you would prefer not to desex or desex when matured I'd find another breeder.

[tdierikx]

Certainly young pups recover from desexing a lot faster than when an older dog is done - but there is some evidence to suggest that long bone growth (among other things) is affected by early age desexing - dogs can be leggier if desexed young.

Then again there is also some evidence from the other side of the argument suggesting there may be some health benefits to desexing young.

It all depends on what you choose to read and take note of - and what purpose you are buying the pup for... ie. if you are wanting to compete in doggy sports, it's advisable to leave desexing until the dog has fully grown.

T.

[Mystiqview]

There are quite a fair bit of discussion about this on a number of forums. There are strong camps for both sides. Even to the point of not desexing at all.

At the end of the day, my best recommendation is go with what you are comfortable with. If you are not comfortable with a breeder who early desexes, try to find a breeder who doesn't.

There have been studies published which show an increase in other cancers, growth issues and also increase of hip displasia in some breeds from early desexing.

Unfortunatly, for every story your read for one side, there is another counter acting it. There have also been links that (early) desexing actually can increase aggression in some breeds.

Personally, I don't believe in it and do not recommend my boys in particular to be desexed until after 12 months. They need their bits to grow properly. Although I do understand why some breeders do desex their dogs before going. I was even considering it if the Dogs Qld, was going to make it manditory that every puppy be placed on the main registration - especially in my breed the rise in unscupulous colour breeders - only breeding borders collies for money and the colour fad.

Do a google search on issues of early desexing of dogs and there will be some articles that come up. I have recently reformatted my computer, so my old bookmarks have been deleted.

here are some I quickly found now.

http://healthypets.mercola.com/sites/healthypets/archive/2013/09/30/neutering-health-risks.aspx

http://www.dogsnaturallymagazine.com/new-study-neuter-risk-hip-dysplasia-dogs/

http://www.google.com.au/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=15&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CDYQFjAEOAo&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.caninesports.com%2Fuploads%2F1%2F5%2F3%2F1%2F15319800%2Fspay_neuter_considerations_2013.pdf&ei=3hxjVJWuLqe7mAWVsIDYDQ&usg=AFQjCNFNpV95MOJ9lbpMKspiHyu5augQ5Q&bvm=bv.79189006,d.dGY

[oakway]

Not unusual for breeders to de sex between 8 and 9 weeks. The RSPCA de sexes from 6 weeks.

The only way breeders can be assured that the pups are not bred from and do not end up in a Puppy Farm or in a Back yard breeding situation.

Many breeders are not happy about doing this but it is the only way to get peace of mind and stop the pup from ending up in a bad situation should the pups circumstances change.

De sexing can also mean Tubal Ligation in some cases.

[Salukifan]

Ask the breeder to consider a vasectomy instead of removing the testes. The pup will still be infertile but retain an important source of growth hormones.

Breeders go for EAD to protect their dogs from unscrupulous breeders. However I'd not buy a pet desexed that young.

Vasectomy is the middle ground.

[Kokoro]

Thanks everyone for the replies. I am mainly concerned about potential growth/development retardation due to hormonal changes however those links posted by Mistiqveiw now also have me a little worried about unknown long term effects like shortened life span/increased cancer risk

If the breeder was not desexing my choice would be to wait until the pup was 6-12 months old so as not to take any unnecessary risks with the dogs health. Of course as a pet owner its much easier to take the side of caution. A breeder sending puppies off into the great unknown presents a very scary prospect and is one reason why I myself could never breed.

[huga]

Sid was desexed at about then and yes, he is leggier than most frenchies. But that was how his breeder protected her pups at that time and I don't blame her. I wasn't interested in another breeder and frenchie pups were much harder to come by back then.

[Maddy]

I've desexed a large breed puppy before he was fully mature (the Idiot Dog, at 9 months old) and even though 9 months is hardly a baby puppy, it's caused some issues*. Personally, I wouldn't buy a puppy from a breeder who desexes at 8 weeks and I wouldn't desex one of my own until at least 12 months.

*The most worrying being a lack of muscle development despite all efforts to get him fit. A weedy dog doesn't seem like a big deal but from what I've seen, of the various foster dogs I've had, weedy dogs are more prone to hurting themselves because they lack that muscle strength and control.

[Mystiqview]

As far as cancer goes. Everything has the potential to cause cancer. Cancer can run in lines, like it can in humans. You can just have bad luck and your dog despite every precaution still gets cancer.

It is proven, even in humans, that the reproductive organs have a bigger role with the body than just allow the body to reproduce. The hormones fulfil a greater role, and I think now people are starting to think about the greater effects desexing and in particular early desexing may have on animals later in life.

If you read all the reports, and not just those I quickly posted - there is not yet concrete proof for either side. There are some very strong arguments for both sides, and it is more now a choice of which side of the fence you wish to sit.

It is interesting though the preliminary data about not desexing males does not necessarily stop male dominance/agresssion etc, and in some males, increased it.

[Dogsfevr]

I now plenty who do it with no issues at all,we haven't as yet but have no worries in doing so if we feel pet owners can't be trusted ,sadly like Cockers we also have a breed that is highly sort after by BYB ,exporters etc etc & ensuring our pups future is worth the small risk to spay early if required .

Given how many cross breeds do dog sports & do it well spayed early i think that debate is just like all the others ,

if your asking this question then it says you have concerns with the breeder & should go elsewhere as i gather they told you from day 1 this is there conditions of sale .

[Kokoro]

Showdog, yes I totally understand the breeders need to do everything they can to protect their pups from BYB, or worse puppy farms

It is still day 1 with the breeder, we have only just made contact and are still in the process of finding out about each other. They don't have a website so I didn't have much information prior to contacting them. I was just concerned because I had never heard of desexing being done as young as 8 weeks. My main concern is that I support a breeder who considers the welfare of the breed and the pups foremost. I'm happy to discuss these concerns with the breeder of course, I just wanted to get some insight from others more experienced on the issue first so as to approach with an informed opinion.

It seems like this is a controversial issue with perhaps no black and white answer and as Mystiqview put it, strong arguments for both sides. I'm yet to make up my mind about it but at least now I know it's not so uncommon for reputable breeders to do this and therefore I needn't take it automatically as a bad sign.

[VizslaMomma]

Ask the breeder to consider a vasectomy instead of removing the testes. The pup will still be infertile but retain an important source of growth hormones.

Breeders go for EAD to protect their dogs from unscrupulous breeders. However I'd not buy a pet desexed that young.

Vasectomy is the middle ground.

At the I Love Dogs Show last Sunday, I asked one of the Vets about vasectomy.

The reply was no Vets do not do this in Australia.

This was not for desexing at a young age either.

I ended the conversation.

[Christina]

Thanks everyone for the replies. I am mainly concerned about potential growth/development retardation due to hormonal changes however those links posted by Mistiqveiw now also have me a little worried about unknown long term effects like shortened life span/increased cancer risk

A breeder sending puppies off into the great unknown presents a very scary prospect and is one reason why I myself could never breed.

There are those for & against early desexing with pros & cons to both views.

Dogs can get cancer/shortened life span from any number of causes not related to them being desexed at any age.

I desex my tiny poodles at about 10 weeks old as they are in huge demand for puppy farm & cross breeding however seeing quite a few pups I have bred that are now adult I can't see that they are any leggier or much different than my breeding dogs except in some desexing does make them inclined to be a bit chunkier in build but some are not.

I would only be concerned about early desex in very large breed dogs however the breeder you have chosen does early desex & trusts their decision. If you do not agree with this you must find another breeder.

[*kirty*]

Ask the breeder to consider a vasectomy instead of removing the testes. The pup will still be infertile but retain an important source of growth hormones.

Breeders go for EAD to protect their dogs from unscrupulous breeders. However I'd not buy a pet desexed that young.

Vasectomy is the middle ground.

At the I Love Dogs Show last Sunday, I asked one of the Vets about vasectomy.

The reply was no Vets do not do this in Australia.

This was not for desexing at a young age either.

I ended the conversation.

It absolutely is done in Australia, you just need to ask for it. It is not done routinely because most people just want their dog desexed.

[sandgrubber]

The science relating to desexing, age of desexing, and health is complex and not well resolved. This is a review of a recent study that compared the health records of desexed vs non-desexed Labradors and goldens based on a large number of vet-clinic health records.

http://skeptvet.com/Blog/2014/07/potential-risks-of-neutering-and-age-at-neutering-for-godlen-retrievers-and-labrador-retrievers/

The confusing thing is that the risks appear to be different for goldies and Labs. And that's statistically significant.

The comforting thing is that the differences aren't huge in any direction. It's not like your dog will be condemned to cancer or protected from cancer depending on whether or not neutered and, if neutered, at what age. It's more like the odds vary between 30% and 35%, depending on what treatment you follow. By in large it fits in the BFD category.

Bottom line comes down to how you feel about it. If you don't like the idea of a true eunuch, who has developed without normal dose of male hormones, then go for a breeder who desexes early. If you don't like the idea, go elsewhere.

[Ivory & Beau]

I had my male English Pointer desexed at about seven months of age. I regret doing it so young now as he is really leggy. But other than that, he's a real gem. And I can't report any other negative changes. He also doesn't shed hair, unless really stressed out ...

But for smaller/toy breeds I wouldn't have an issue with them being done young.