Rare Or Disqualifed Colours In Breeds.

[SnoPaws]

Just quickly off the topic of Samoyeds for a second ;)

For 38 ;) years I have wanted a HEALTHY SHOW QUALITY white Sibe ;) :D

I think they are just devine .......................... don't quite like my chances of ever having one :nahnah:

Wow, pretty.

So they arn't easy to get or do breeders not like the colour and try to aviod it for health reasons?

I've never seen one before.

I only know of one, named Bundy of all things and he is not show quality

I have never seen one in the ring.

Even though I have owned Sams, Sibes and Mals for nearly forty years so have a little bit of knowlege about the breeds, show most weekends and only have house dogs who are spoilt rotten the moment I mention I am really interested in a white Sibe every breeder I have spoken to shoves their fingers in their ears ;)

KA that is what I reckon :D :D

I am unsure of any health issues

Edited to add Google is of no help to me but just taking a stab in the dark here, eye and hip issues are the most common problems in the breed and blue eyed dogs would have be more prone to eye issues.

Edited November 4, 2010 by SnoPaws

[Bjelkier]

Interesting, thanks.

[MrRedDog]

I have 2 long haired short legged Rottweilers... don’t I???

[KumaAkita]

@ MrRedDog!

[t-time]

:nahnah: (Bit short for the standard donchathink?! )

[Ozstar]

Ozstar is the blue in frenchies a health issue like in staffies? This fella is a real cutie but I'd hate to think he might have health risks associated with his prettiness.

They have the same health problems, skin problems.

Also the eye colour does not conform to standard.

There has been a few blues crop up in Australia and I hope that it does not go the same way as the blue Staffords.

Years ago there was a person trying to pimp out his blue brindle boy to everyone. Had the worst eye colour

Leanne

[ophnbark]

Here is a blue Schipperke, he only lived until he was 16 months old.

Why did he die?

The blue in Schipps is known as the death gene and rarely do they survive beyond birth. Besides the alopecia which he had from only a couple of weeks of age, he became blind, couldn't eat without being hand fed, developed kidney, liver and heart problems and other auto immune issues. We knew when we took him on that he wouldn't survive for long but we wanted to give him a home for his short life.

just on his colour, health issues aside, could he have been exhibited as he was a "whole colour".

I've seen the odd light coloured Schipp ( not sure what colour they are called ) in the ring and have had to look twice , to see what they are.

The blue couldn't have been shown as he was self coloured and Schipps must have black pigment.

The light coloured Schipps are referred to as creams regardless of whether they are a deep gold or almost white. We show a couple of them but certainly don't breed to get them however they do crop up in our litters pretty frequently.

[ophnbark]

[How terribly sad.

Now that is one pup that may have been far better off culled at birth.

Very true and should we ever get one in a litter that will be exactly what will happen.

[poodlefan]

Fox red Labrador Retriever (on right). The Lab folk can set me straight but I think its still considered to be "yellow" in the Standard. Love this colour.

[RallyValley]

It's a Toller Lab!

[TeamSnag]

I have 2 long haired short legged Rottweilers... don’t I???

:nahnah:

[t-time]

still considered to be "yellow" in the Standard.

Yep.

[wuffles]

For anyone interested in white, here are some pictures of my girl at various ages showing how the pigmentation on her face has changed. Sometimes it's hard to tell what they're going to look like when they're older! She is still missing a tiny bit of pigment on the inside of her eyerims and ended up with some black splotches.

[Bullbreedlover]

Forwarded of course with permission from the French Bulldog Club of America

COLOR AND THE FRENCH BULLDOG BREED STANDARD

The Constitution of The French Bull Dog Club of America says: "The objects of

the club shall be . . . to urge members and breeders to accept the standard of the

breed as approved by the American Kennel Club as the only standard of

excellence by which French Bulldogs shall be judged

Our Standard has included basically the same color requirements and

disqualifications since they were added in 1911. During the intervening 97 years,

it has listed the following as disqualifications: solid black, black and white, black

and tan, liver and mouse color. In the FCI (Fédération Cynologique

Internationale) Standard, the term "mouse grey" is used (Mausgrau in German,

gris souris in French). Since our color disqualifications were added the same

year that a Conference of French Bull Dog Clubs of Europe, at which our club

participated, developed the European countries' standard, it is clear that the

"mouse" in the US Standard referred to the mouse-grey coat color shown by

dogs expressing the recessive "blue dilution" (D/d) gene.

The genetics of canine coat color is complicated because there are several

genetic loci involved, some of which control the color and intensity of the

pigments, and some of which control the pattern of distribution of these colors.

Briefly, there are two types of pigment in dogs— a light pigment (phaeomelanin)

which may range from reddish through yellow to pale cream; and a dark pigment

(eumelanin) which is either black or brown. French bulldogs should carry only

the gene for the black type of dark pigment and therefore should have only black

noses, lips and paw pads. Brown pigment in the coat or nose/lips/pads is

unacceptable (and is the "liver" that our Standard deems a disqualification; it is

also a DQ by the FCI standard). The light pigment gives rise to a range of fawn

coat colors — all phaeomelanin, but in various degrees of concentration to

produce the range of pigmentation from red through fawn to cream. Some fawn

Frenchies have a black mask, which is a recognized and acceptable coat.

There is a "pattern" genetic locus that gives rise to brindle coats. Brindle

Frenchies have a base coat of fawn hairs through which black hairs extend in

bands to produce a coat ranging from a "tiger" brindle in which the fawn hairs

predominate, to the more common dark brindles in which the black hairs

predominate. In some of the latter, the black hairs are so numerous that there

may be only a small number of fawn hairs arranged in one or more bands. Our

standard refers to "a trace of brindle," which should have enough fawn hairs to

demonstrate this pattern. There is no such thing as a "brindle hair" since brindle

is a pattern consisting of a mixture of black hairs and fawn hairs.

Another 'pattern" gene produces pied (piebald) in which the coat is white with

pigmented patches most commonly located on the head, tail base, and "saddle".

The pigmented patches may be either fawn or brindle, but in a brindle pied dog

there must be enough fawn hairs visible in at least one of the pigmented patches

to provide the brindle pattern, so that it is not the disqualified "white with black."

Another pattern gene gives rise to black-and-tan (black with tan points), also a

disqualification in both the US and the FCI standard. While there have been

some black and tan Frenchies, these are rarely seen.

The color that has become more widespread in recent years, and which some

are promoting as "rare," is the "blue" coloration caused by the recessive gene

called "Blue Dilution" (D/d). This gene can act on both the dark (black or brown)

and light (red to yellow) pigments.

In a brindle or a brindle pied dog, what should be black hairs (as well as black

pigment on the nose, and paws) is a slatey blue-grey color. In a fawn or fawn

pied (white with fawn markings) dog, the fawn hairs are a silvery fawn and the

nose, the dark mask (if there is one) and paw pads are slatey blue-grey. Any

French Bulldog that has mouse colored hair - whether on a brindle or a fawn dog

- should be disqualified as mouse. The coat color constitutes a disqualification -

as does the nose color.

Although some people find blue Frenchies attractive, neither they nor their

offspring should be sold for show or for breeding, as they all carry a disqualifying

genetic fault. If a blue dog (d/d, with two copies of the recessive "blue gene") is

bred to another blue (d/d), all of the resulting puppies will also be blue (d/d). If a

blue dog (d/d) is bred to a non-blue who is NOT a carrier of the blue gene (D/D),

ALL of the puppies will be carriers of, but will not express, the blue gene (D/d). If

a carrier of the blue gene (D/d), is bred to a non-carrier (D/D), 1/2 of the puppies

will be normal non-carriers (D/D) and 1/2 will be carriers (D/d). If two carriers are

bred together (D/d X D/d), 1/4 of the puppies will be blue (d/d), 1/2 will be

carriers (D/d), and 1/4 will be normal non-carriers (D/D).

Some people mistakenly believe that even though a dog may have a blue dog in

its ancestry, that if no blues have been produced in several generations that

means that their dog can’t be carrying the blue gene. This is wrong. It is not like

mixing paint in a bucket, progressively diluting out the undesirable gene. A

recessive gene will keep passing hidden and unchanged through an infinite

number of generations of carriers. The insidious thing about a recessive gene is

that carriers pass the gene on to about 1/2 of their offspring, producing another

generation of carriers; then those carriers pass it on to 1/2 of their offspring, and

so forth, so that the gene spreads unnoticed through the gene pool as people

unaware of an affected ancestor breed its descendents. It will only surface when

a carrier is bred to another carrier (or to a blue), which happens when people do

linebreeding. This is one of the beneficial things about linebreeding; it exposes

the presence of undesirable recessive genes in a line, so that responsible

breeders can undertake to eliminate them.

eta

Tan, mouse and grey/blue are highly undesirable colours in Australia. There are no disqualifications though. It is up to the judge to place them accordingly

Edited November 4, 2010 by stonebridge

[poochmad]

Love the different coloured Frenchies. Stunning. Don't think I would pay $20K though.

[Nekhbet]

You can get black malinois.

I havnt seen one that doesnt have dutch shepherd in it .... if you get the odd one it's a massive throwback but to get quite 'a few' I would be suss

I know one person with 'black malinois' funny some pups were brindle and mum was non pedigree ... thats a deshonko guarentee right there

[Crazy Daisy]

This thread is really interesting.

I have only recently started showing Golden Retrievers and in my search about the breed I found this interesting webpage about the permissible colours in Goldens.

This first photo shows that the samoyed and the setter are not permissible Golden colours

The two on each end of this line up are not allowed but anything in between is acceptable.

[t-time]

And pretty much the same, this gamut of colours is what is called "yellow" in Labs

[MalteseLuna]

I guess if people learn something from all this then that is a good thing.

The saddlepoint pattern (as) is a different gene from the black & tan (at). Interestingly Amber has a different sable gene (ay) to the gorgeous sable husky (aw).

as has not been confirmed at a genetic level.

I guess if people learn something from all this then that is a good thing.

The saddlepoint pattern (as) is a different gene from the black & tan (at). Interestingly Amber has a different sable gene (ay) to the gorgeous sable husky (aw).

And just to confuse things more, sable in Borzoi is now known not to be a^s or a^w as once reported, but almost certainly a^t a^t with a modifier on the e series, e^G. Unlike clear red borozi which are a^y. Sable can be tricky.

Different allele or mutation at the same gene, agouti.

I am not aware of any Samoyeds with the above issues ^^^^^^

I think the deafness issue depends on which gene series is producing the white. I thought Samoyeds' white came from the chinchilla series, and some other whites from the S spotting series - but I may be remembering it wrong.

I think that in my breed even the apparently white dogs, which are probably extreme white spotted on the S series, have modifiers which ensure some colour, however faint, over the ears. I haven't heard of deafness issues (not that I would necesssarily hear).

Additionally white in samoyods is not caused by chinchilla but rather double ee at the E (Extension) locus like Maltese Chinchilla hasn't been verified at a genetic level yet.

There are different genes which can cause solid white colour - only some are associated with deafness.

Edited November 4, 2010 by MalteseLuna

[Guest belgian.blue]

Wonder if there is a mis-marked Belgian Shepherd anywhere ..

You can get black malinois.

I've also seen photos of working malinois with "too much white", i.e. white all over the chest. And my dog's litter brother (malinois) was born with one white sock. I guess maybe those are mismarks, if you're interested in showing? Doesn't really matter for a working dog, though.

Eta, and you can get blue (dilute) malinois.

Hmm wonder if there are any Groen with too much white, other than the normal white splash on the chest.