AlanMatic Posted October 19, 2011 Author Share Posted October 19, 2011 The issue was never that I can not afford to pay for a pup (maybe read my post more correctly?). Your comment was not really relevant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trinabean Posted October 19, 2011 Share Posted October 19, 2011 Oh, I thought from the details under your username that you were currently in Qld. I was wrong! Go with Pixie Meg's advice re. searching for a good breeder interstate. Being in W.A I do understand what it's like to potentially have less breeders to choose from than in more densely-populated states. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pixie_meg Posted October 19, 2011 Share Posted October 19, 2011 The issue was never that I can not afford to pay for a pup (maybe read my post more correctly?). Your comment was not really relevant. I never once accused you of not affording a pup. The comment is relevant as far as why breeders set prices and the value of a pup. all which have been brought up in this thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RubyBlue Posted October 19, 2011 Share Posted October 19, 2011 (edited) I regularly talk to my dog's breeder and recently learnt of the huge vet bills she faced after his litter was born. The bitch had problems during whelping, haemhoraged (sp?) afterwards and needed a blood transfusion. She was subsequently speyed, earlier than planned. One of the pups was deaf and a suitable home was not found, so the breeder has kept him. Another pup was returned to the breeder as the family who took her decided a puppy was too much hard work. So now she has 3 dogs that can't be shown (both those pups were limited register) and can't be a part of her breeding program. Between the emergency vet costs, normal litter costs (microchipping, feeding, vaccinations, worming etc) and lifelong care costs for the desexed bitch and returned/ retained pups that litter cost her a lot more than what the other pups were sold for. Yep the lab pup I am hoping to get is a singleton born by caesar and the mating was AI. The breeder won't be able to cover her costs..... Edited October 19, 2011 by RubyBlue Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RubyBlue Posted October 19, 2011 Share Posted October 19, 2011 How does one go about finding an ethical breeder when purchasing from interstate? The breeder's facilities can't be viewed and as every breeder sets their own price tag, the cost doesn't seem to reflect actual quality of life for the dogs in question. Just curious - what state are you looking to buy in and why are you keen on interstate? Word of mouth is a good way to find good breeders. Talk to people who have bought pups off them in the past, you can possibly meet/see their dog and talk to them about any problems they have had or what their relationship with the breeder is like. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allerzeit Posted October 19, 2011 Share Posted October 19, 2011 I would love to learn more about the real costs of pedigree breeding. If only more breeder's websites listed a real "glimpse" into the day to day responsibilities and costs involved. A little transparency in the world of pedigree dog breeding could really help potential owners/purchasers to understand the costs involved with rearing a litter; and help that $1200+ price tag become understandable. Here's a quick example for you - I've just tallied up the costs of our last litter (now 12 weeks old), this is probably on the conservative side - I didn't keep every food receipt, for example. Also, I'm self employed, and I basically had to stop work for the 8 weeks of raising the pups, so there was a pretty dramatic loss of income during that time, which isn't included in those costs (I don't get annual leave - no work means no pay). We had a litter of 7, we kept one pup and one pup went to the stud owner in lieu of a stud fee, so we sold 5 pups at $1200 each = income for the litter of $6000 Expenses: Pre breeding health testing = $400 Taking bitch interstate to stud, inc progesterone testing = $1500 Ultrasound to confirm pregnancy, plus vet visit during whelping for uterine inertia = $250 Purchase of whelping supplies, puppy toys, worming meds, puppy booklet printing costs etc = $600 Vaccinations = $350 Microchipping = $140 Food for puppies and pregnant/lactating bitch = $1100 Puppy registrations = $140 Total = $4480 So, you could say we made a profit of around $1500 from the litter - but as I said, this doesn't include loss of income, which would have been far more than that. Overall, we would have lost several thousand dollars on producing the litter.... but, we don't breed to make money. We breed to improve on the quality of our dogs - and we have kept a lovely little bitch, and the stud dog owner has another very lovely girl, so we are thrilled with that. Plus we have the satisfaction of having sold quality pups to some lovely people, who are really enjoying their puppies and who we keep in regular contact with - something we enjoy Also, this would be considered to be a pretty easy litter - no major complications apart from some minor uterine inertia, and Feonix was considerate enough to whelp during business hours, so we had no expensive after hours emergency vet bills, which is not an uncommon occurance in breeding. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red Fox Posted October 19, 2011 Share Posted October 19, 2011 How does one go about finding an ethical breeder when purchasing from interstate? The breeder's facilities can't be viewed and as every breeder sets their own price tag, the cost doesn't seem to reflect actual quality of life for the dogs in question. Reputation, word of mouth, research. How are that breeders dogs doing in your chosen area (sport, show, etc)? Go to shows and/or trials. Speak to other breeders. Speak to owners. Research the lines you like... i didn't say they shouldn't have one (maybe quote me more correctly), but the initial cost of a pup is so minuscule compared to the cost of yearly upkeep. Yes it is, but you can't deny that the initial outlay does hit the hip pocket hard for the average person. Though if you want the dog you save for it. Just like anything else in life. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
**Super_Dogs** Posted October 19, 2011 Share Posted October 19, 2011 Expenses: Pre breeding health testing = $400 Taking bitch interstate to stud, inc progesterone testing = $1500 Ultrasound to confirm pregnancy, plus vet visit during whelping for uterine inertia = $250 Purchase of whelping supplies, puppy toys, worming meds, puppy booklet printing costs etc = $600 Vaccinations = $350 Microchipping = $140 Food for puppies and pregnant/lactating bitch = $1100 Puppy registrations = $140 Total = $4480 So, you could say we made a profit of around $1500 from the litter - but as I said, this doesn't include loss of income, which would have been far more than that. My last litter, after costs I was left with about $1500 also. But then there is the loss of income from my day job - so profit = zero! This was an easy litter. If there was complications I would have lost money as others have mentioned they have. Then there is the blood, sweat and tears (many tears ). When we had the litter people would ask how much we where selling them for, count the number of puppies and you could see their eyes light up $$$. I would then tell them we are breaking even - there jaw would hit the ground. Until you do it - you just do not realise how much it costs. I am sure there are ways to cut costs, but I want the best for my bitch, the puppies and the new owners. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris the Rebel Wolf Posted October 19, 2011 Share Posted October 19, 2011 It would not surprise me Alan to see a lab from a registered breeder being sold at $1200. I suppose cost of living could blamed as well for the price rise - I for one was shocked at how much a simple vaccination has risen over the past few years, and can only imagine we are seeing increased vet bills in the same vein. I don't believe that promoting exclusivity via very high pricing is really helping the dogs - as the gap between pet store or backyard breeder and registered breeder grows wider, surely many will take the cheaper route (thus increasing pet store demand) when the benefits of buying pedigree, and the costs of breeding pedigree animals, are not clearly understood. I understand your point here. I work in a pet store [who do not sell pups] and I get to see a wide spectrum of pet owners and breeders - from the responsible registered breeder to the not-so-dedicated types who are (unknowingly or not) supporting poor quality backyard breeders or puppy farms. Or backyarding themselves. I can see some people really baulking at spending $1200 on a Labrodor when, in he words of one recent customer who spoke to me; 'You can buy one out the paper for $400'. I always try to explain it's not so much about the initial cost as it is the peace of mind, the genetic conditions and the care involved, but, as we all know - some people will listen to you, and others already have the ideas cemented in their skull. You can only hope that some small thing you've said sticks with them and they rethink... but anyway we are deviating now. I understand why a registered breeder is charging more than a backyarder, but I am fairly educated in the matter. Not everyone you pass in the streets is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alyosha Posted October 19, 2011 Share Posted October 19, 2011 Another break down for you Alanmatic, from our recent litter - now 14 weeks old. We had 12, we kept two pups and two are still here, not having found their homes yet. So we sold 8 pups, 5 at pet price and 3 at show price, $800 and $1000 respectively = income from the litter so far of $6200 Expenses: Pre breeding and whelping vet care = $250 Purchase of whelping supplies, puppy toys, worming meds, etc = $400 Extra milk replacer, supplies and medications for post whelping complications = $200 Dewclaw removal = $300 Vaccinations & Microchipping round one= $940 Laundry expenses = $200 Food for puppies and pregnant/lactating bitch = $2000 (estimate. On average pups on their own were costing $20-$30 per day to feed from week 6 onwards) Puppy registrations = $350 Additional vet fees for transport certificates, fuel for numerous trips to vets/airports etc = $500 Export pedigree for one pup exported = $100 Vaccinations round two - $200 Total = $5390 Costs ongoing as we still have pups here. So far profit of just under 1k, but read on... With lactating mum eating as much as three adult dogs during the first few weeks, and going through a bag of milk replacer at $60 a bag every five days as well, the food bills are such that we didn't keep close track. We might have had heart failure! Feeding 12 very large breed pups as they get bigger is reminiscent of feeding a litter of piglets - the food is made in bucketloads... But entertaining!! I took annual leave from work which was paid but I missed all overtime and penalties etc. which are normally included in my income so it was lower. Only in the last couple of weeks have I been able to go back to normal extras like that, as all additional work duties etc were off limits due to puppy commitments. Lucky my work is so understanding! The price you put on that first two weeks of next to no sleep and constant never ending puppy work I don't know. But it's draining as well as emotionally and physically demanding in the extreme. However I find the most draining as they get bigger is the people interactions. Keeping track of who is who and what pup is where, which one needs extra vet work and which one is going to the airport tomorrow. The endless tyre kickes and suspicious types. It has left both me and my partner completely flat. Lucky the pups are worth every minute and every cent. And when they arrive at their new home and we get the excited emails, gorgeous photos and happy phone calls it is worth it. :D And lucky we love our vet and get to laugh with him about our choice of expensive passion. I keep telling him horse people pay more but he's not convinced. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlanMatic Posted October 20, 2011 Author Share Posted October 20, 2011 Thank you to breeders for providing your breakdowns. I can see like most passions, it's done for love not money! Can I ask opinions/clarify: why are pups often sold at two different price points? A breeder has told me there is no difference in cost to register a dog as a limited or mains pedigree. Why do breeders often charge several hundred more for mains registration of the same pup? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allerzeit Posted October 20, 2011 Share Posted October 20, 2011 There is a difference in price to register limited vs main, but it's not very much - it varies from state to state, but it's only about $10 difference in Tasmania. Some breeders charge more, some don't - neither party is right or wrong. I think both sides have valid reasons for charging more or not charging more, it's just a personal preference. We don't charge different prices (although we may choose to discount a price if a pup has a disqualification level fault), so I won't comment on why some breeders do - I'll leave that up to them Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ellinnet Posted October 20, 2011 Share Posted October 20, 2011 Can I ask opinions/clarify: why are pups often sold at two different price points? A breeder has told me there is no difference in cost to register a dog as a limited or mains pedigree. Why do breeders often charge several hundred more for mains registration of the same pup? Why the difference in price for the sale of pups, between those sold on main and limited register... I'm not a breeder. but to me the difference makes sense. Happy to be corrected if I'm not right though, or for someone to expand on what I'm saying. I think many breeders only sell top quality pups on the main register. Those which are well within the breed specification, They are the ones which are best to be bred to maintain or improve breed standards. You pay that bit more for the extra quality of what you are getting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mason_Gibbs Posted October 20, 2011 Share Posted October 20, 2011 I didnt pay more for my main register boy... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RallyValley Posted October 20, 2011 Share Posted October 20, 2011 Main register you are paying for access to bloodlines, my girls breeder has spent many $1000's of dollars importing new bloodlines from the USA. I didn't mind paying a small amount extra to have access to those bloodlines and think the breeder has every right to charge a couple of $100 extra, would have even paid more ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dame Aussie Posted October 21, 2011 Share Posted October 21, 2011 I didnt pay more for my main register boy... Me either, my girl is on main register and cost the same as all the others. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sheena Posted October 21, 2011 Share Posted October 21, 2011 If I wanted to buy a pup on Mains Register, I would have no objection, in fact I would expect to pay more, the same as I would expect the pup on mains to be superior quality to those being sold on Limited. If you look on the Puppy's for sale page, there are a lot of breeds listed there where they offer most of their pups on Main, whereas, with my breed, border collies, it is very hard to buy a pup on Mains & the odd breeder offering all their pups on Mains, wouldn't be worth a look at, cause no entire litter could ever be that good IMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bjelkier Posted October 21, 2011 Share Posted October 21, 2011 I didnt pay more for my main register boy... Me either, my girl is on main register and cost the same as all the others. I didnt pay extra for any of my Main Reg dogs either nor would I sell Main Reg pups for more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allerzeit Posted October 21, 2011 Share Posted October 21, 2011 I don't think it necessarily holds true that pups on limited register are of a lesser quality than those on main register - it depends on how the breeder approaches their registrations. We had several puppies in our recent litter who I would have been happy to put on main register and have go to showing/breeding homes. However, as it turned out, they were all sold to pet homes, so they were put on limited register. For us, putting a puppy on limited register doesn't necessarily mean that it's of a lower quality, just that it has been sold to a pet home rather than a show/breeding home. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
**Super_Dogs** Posted October 21, 2011 Share Posted October 21, 2011 I don't think it necessarily holds true that pups on limited register are of a lesser quality than those on main register - it depends on how the breeder approaches their registrations. Agree. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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