Where Do I Stand With My Breeder

[melstar-36]

Oh my god, I didn't reliaze that I was feeding her crap, I will stop straight away, a nice lean diet of raw food is on the menu for now on. I have read abit that diet and excerise is a big contributer, Dutchess is going to get a shock. I tought I was doing the right thing with calcium powder and making her own food, thanks heaps I will do anything to help her out.

[Topoftheheap]

Well I am going to take a different approach to this.

Before anything further is done I would ascertain that this bitch is of a quality to be bred with.

I think you said she has not been shown ?. If she has not been shown how do you know the dog is of a quality to be bred with ?. Most bitches are usually only bred with after a successful winning show career.

What we purchase as young stock sometimes may not even make the grade as breeding stock.

I would be making sure this one is of suitable quality and getting a second opinion from an orthopaedic man before I did anything further. :)

Why would any of that matter now? She has a GENETIC FAULT, and the ONLY right thing to do is have her desexed, and eliminated from the breeding programme, whether she was a breeding quality or not. Her options regarding the dog's quality of life regarding surgery, etc, are a seperate issue. It is people who take breeding animals to orthapedic surgeons have the damage repaired so they are invisible, put them in the show ring as there is no way of telling once the fur has grown back, and then breed from them that is causing issues within our breed. If a dog has a genetic fault such as patella luxation it should be eliminated from breeding, no ifs and buts about it. There is no genetic test for patella's to test for carriers, so even if you have pups from the bitch that are unaffected they could still be carrying the fault. Not only is taking these chances wrong, and against the Code of Ethics, it is cruel to the potential pups that have to live with the disorder, or have an excruiciating surgery for the repair, that may not work. Unfortunately for the owner, because the bitch has patella luxation it is not of breeding quality, so there is no point assessing its other points. It could be the most amazing dog structually and temperament wise but its patella's eliminate it from breeding potential. And if I was aware of anybody who did have a patella luxation operation occur and then still breed then I think that is something I would report.

[tdierikx]

The vet that is now trying to get you to put your dog through expensive and most probably unnecessary surgery was the one that told you to feed it calcium powder, isn't she? At 14 months of age a Cavalier doesn't need any extra calcium if she's getting plenty of bones and the like.

Stop the calcium powder and get a specialist to properly diagnose what (if anything) is going on with your dog's knees... and get yourself a different general vet for non-specialist visits.

I'm not going to give advice about breeding a bitch that's never proven herself in the show ring... but let's just say I wouldn't do it just because her temperament is good and she looks pretty to you...

T.

[Topoftheheap]

We have been to a few shows but I only watch, I have so much more to learn before I jump in, instead I stay at home and watch my crufts DVDs and hope one day I can play with the big boys. Lol. And Evan though she hadn't been shown doesn't make her poor quality, she's lived up to all my expectations and has the best temperament. One off the questions on the breeders exam was- best practical advice for selection a foundation bitch- a. Use your first bitch B. use your first title winning bitch C. Consider type and temperament D. Consider wins... The answer c, my girl doesn't need to be Evan though I'd love her to be, a champion in the show ring to be considered good breeding stock. But she will be desexed now and I'll have to dream off competing in the neuter class now :)

It doesn't matter how much you love this bitch and how good her temperament may be, she may not have the conformation

to be a brood bitch.

Why would you de sex on vets say so when the vet may not be fully qualified to diagnose this condition.

Maybe if you told us how this bitch has been fed we may be able to help you more as diet plays a big part in the bone development. :)

You can't show her in neuter class!!!! She has a fault that without repair would be disqualifyable. That means that you have surgically altered the dog to make it be able to show, against the rules and ethically wrong. Im really sorry for you, you are going to have to come to the same realisation that we did with our bitch that had the same problems. She too was bought as a foundation bitch, and we were devastated when it occured, but you have to come to terms with the fact that her show career no matter what class is OVER, as is breeding her, and as you are getting her desexed you are being responsible and realise this. We have known of situations where a responsible breeder has replaced dogs that have the same issues, and your breeder may do the same, and give you the chance of your breeding and showing dreams, but with this bitch its game over.

[persephone]

She has a GENETIC FAULT, and the ONLY right thing to do is have her desexed, and eliminated from the breeding programme, whether she was a breeding quality or not.

ALLEGED genetic fault at this stage...

hopefully a decent orthopaedic specialist who knows cavs has been chosen, and they will be able provide more information.

[suziwong66]

My sister's pedigree dog in the UK has developed HD from parents with good hip scores, sometimes it is just bad luck, mother nature has the last say..

You got that right!

Our breeder imported a dog, that came from fabulous lines and was a lovely example of labradors, to introduce into her breeding stock. First mating with one of her bitches (who in turn came from great lines and had ticked the health test boxes) resulted in the entire litter having overshot jaws. He was desexed immediately and sent off to live with the breeders daughter as their family pet. It was a devastating blow to our breeder's breeding program.

Mother Nature can be cruel.

[Tapua]

I am sorry if you pup is in pain and I hope she can be treated successfully.Of course you should neuter her if there is a genetic link and let the problem finish. As a breeder we are damned if we do and damned if we dont test for everything and despite all tests many conditions can occur even after a long long history healthy progeny. Plus there are many conditions where there is not test available. I am glad you are consulting with a specialist - it will cost a whack to see him/her but worth the second opinion.

If your current vet is so insecure as to get defensive about you seeking a second opinion - get another vet. I am lucky that my vets of 15 years are highly experienced in Canine and Equine orthopaedics but do not hesitate to get a second opinion.Your vets concern should be your dogs well-being. Most knee, lameness or swelling cannot be diagnosed correctly without an arthroscopy something a GP vet cannot do. Your dream of becoming a breeder may involve this steep learning curve.

IMO good dog breeders research thoroughly do all their homework about health issues and undertand and accept that despite all the effort health issues occur. We offer pups to people in good faith and pray when someone says they want to be a breeder that the pup grow up to forfill your expectations. I dont believe your breeder has any financial responsibilty to your pups surgery - you might however be offered a free replacement as a sign of good will, if you handle the contact with your breeder rationally and in a non accusatory manor. Your breeder will require probably ask for proof from the specialist for her own benefit and her breeding program

I hope by now you have informed your breeder of your situation.

Edited April 20, 2012 by Tapua

[melstar-36]

I haven't informed her yet but I will once I have taken the right steps to fully identify the problem, I was very harsh to point the finger at her without knowing the facts. Once the specialist has confirmed that is what it is, I will contact her to let her beware of the problem, desex my bitch, leaving the idea of breeding and showing on the bench for a few years and enjoy my bitch as a companion

[persephone]

Re: feeding, you might find some useful info in this (VERY LONG) thread CLICK HERE

She will get the best ratio of calcium:phosphorous, and good amounts, from soft digestible bone :)

[Bisart Dobes]

My gorgeous little cavalier has just been to the vets and the vet tells me she has patella, a genetic disease of the knees and required surgery to recorrect them, of course I will be contacting her breeder to tell her, my question is what grounds do I have to stand on, I purchased the dog with all intentions of breeding in the future, the breeder knew this and was sold on Main papers. She has seen a heart and eyes specialist and seemed to have all the boxes ticked until today. Now of course she will have the operation and desexed to make sure the condition isn't passed on. Can I suggest that the breeder help out with the vet bills, I'm really upset and frustrated, I called the vca but apparently the person I need to speak too isn't there Friday, do I report her?

Why wasn't your first call to the breeder of the dog ?

As a breeder I would sincerely hope that all of our puppy buyers - pet or show - would contact me before anything else. Some of our puppy buyers ring me before they take the dog to the vet just to check if they need to (sometimes they don't).

You may find that your breeder knows alot more about this in the breed than the vet does.

Also my little bitch - I am totally sick of reading things like this on these forums - ring the breeder and don't blab this crap online making them seem like they have done the wrong thing. Far out you are talking about reporting her !!!!!!!!!! - you haven't even spoken to her yet

[Sheridan]

My gorgeous little cavalier has just been to the vets and the vet tells me she has patella, a genetic disease of the knees and required surgery to recorrect them, of course I will be contacting her breeder to tell her, my question is what grounds do I have to stand on, I purchased the dog with all intentions of breeding in the future, the breeder knew this and was sold on Main papers. She has seen a heart and eyes specialist and seemed to have all the boxes ticked until today. Now of course she will have the operation and desexed to make sure the condition isn't passed on. Can I suggest that the breeder help out with the vet bills, I'm really upset and frustrated, I called the vca but apparently the person I need to speak too isn't there Friday, do I report her?

Why wasn't your first call to the breeder of the dog ?

As a breeder I would sincerely hope that all of our puppy buyers - pet or show - would contact me before anything else. Some of our puppy buyers ring me before they take the dog to the vet just to check if they need to (sometimes they don't).

You may find that your breeder knows alot more about this in the breed than the vet does.

Also my little bitch - I am totally sick of reading things like this on these forums - ring the breeder and don't blab this crap online making them seem like they have done the wrong thing. Far out you are talking about reporting her !!!!!!!!!! - you haven't even spoken to her yet

Always helpful if you read the rest of the thread before responding ...

[Bisart Dobes]

My gorgeous little cavalier has just been to the vets and the vet tells me she has patella, a genetic disease of the knees and required surgery to recorrect them, of course I will be contacting her breeder to tell her, my question is what grounds do I have to stand on, I purchased the dog with all intentions of breeding in the future, the breeder knew this and was sold on Main papers. She has seen a heart and eyes specialist and seemed to have all the boxes ticked until today. Now of course she will have the operation and desexed to make sure the condition isn't passed on. Can I suggest that the breeder help out with the vet bills, I'm really upset and frustrated, I called the vca but apparently the person I need to speak too isn't there Friday, do I report her?

Why wasn't your first call to the breeder of the dog ?

As a breeder I would sincerely hope that all of our puppy buyers - pet or show - would contact me before anything else. Some of our puppy buyers ring me before they take the dog to the vet just to check if they need to (sometimes they don't).

You may find that your breeder knows alot more about this in the breed than the vet does.

Also my little bitch - I am totally sick of reading things like this on these forums - ring the breeder and don't blab this crap online making them seem like they have done the wrong thing. Far out you are talking about reporting her !!!!!!!!!! - you haven't even spoken to her yet

Always helpful if you read the rest of the thread before responding ...

I have - the breeder should still be the first point of call - IMHO.

[Sheridan]

My gorgeous little cavalier has just been to the vets and the vet tells me she has patella, a genetic disease of the knees and required surgery to recorrect them, of course I will be contacting her breeder to tell her, my question is what grounds do I have to stand on, I purchased the dog with all intentions of breeding in the future, the breeder knew this and was sold on Main papers. She has seen a heart and eyes specialist and seemed to have all the boxes ticked until today. Now of course she will have the operation and desexed to make sure the condition isn't passed on. Can I suggest that the breeder help out with the vet bills, I'm really upset and frustrated, I called the vca but apparently the person I need to speak too isn't there Friday, do I report her?

Why wasn't your first call to the breeder of the dog ?

As a breeder I would sincerely hope that all of our puppy buyers - pet or show - would contact me before anything else. Some of our puppy buyers ring me before they take the dog to the vet just to check if they need to (sometimes they don't).

You may find that your breeder knows alot more about this in the breed than the vet does.

Also my little bitch - I am totally sick of reading things like this on these forums - ring the breeder and don't blab this crap online making them seem like they have done the wrong thing. Far out you are talking about reporting her !!!!!!!!!! - you haven't even spoken to her yet

Always helpful if you read the rest of the thread before responding ...

I have - the breeder should still be the first point of call - IMHO.

Then you'll see the OP has calmed down and will call the breeder once she's seen the specialist. It may not be in the order you like but she doesn't answer to you.

[Crazy Daisy]

Sorry quick question. I have always heard that you shouldn't add calcium powder to a puppies diet (Been told by my Golden breeder). Why do vets keep recommending it? Is it beneficial to some breeds and not others or better to not be used at all? Just wondering ;)

[Crisovar]

Sorry quick question. I have always heard that you shouldn't add calcium powder to a puppies diet (Been told by my Golden breeder). Why do vets keep recommending it? Is it beneficial to some breeds and not others or better to not be used at all? Just wondering ;)

The OPs diet is pretty well devoid of calcium, a calcium supplement would be advisable in this case.

Balanced diets do not need additional calcium, a complete dry food diet or a raw diet based on edible RMBs for instance would not need additional supplements.

[Dogsfevr]

A good vet is worth there weight in gold ,a bad vet is a vet bill waiting to happen .

Sadly more of these vets appear & there are often a good breeders worst enemy.

Good breeders supply diet charts that work well or if not they ask people to contact them & discuss alternatives.

I now on numerous occasions our puppy owners at there first vet checks or puppy pre school have been so brain washed into feeding what they suggest that it is often very scary.

Luckily all our buyers ring & ask what our view is,some sadly follow the diet & then ring when things go wrong or we make comment when we next groom it.

One of our pups last year came for its groom ,it was 8 weeks since we last saw it & nearly died when we saw the coat quality & condition.

We asked what they where feeding & they told us Bark Busters told them to feed the barf from the supermarket so they did.

Next groom back to our diet & good healthy skin & coat & much happier dog .

Diet is very important & also very breed personal ,often on here people suggest things that may not suit that breed & could create issues .

Everyones idea of correct diet varies but it is one of the most important aspects .

[TheMadDogLady]

Until you get the definite diagnosis from a Specialist and x-rays, don't assume she has LP.

I have never exercised any of my large or small breeds even close to what most people do because I wait for their bones to fully develop/set before full exercise or tearing around in play. Ditto I've never broken a horse in until 5yo for the same reason. I've NEVER allowed my dogs of any size to climb up or down staircases nor stand or jump on their back legs whilst growing. ALL of these activities can exacerbate existing conditions.

As for diet, I'm an avid raw feeder, but ensure the mix is 80% muscle meat, 5% raw bone and 5% secreting organs (liver/kidney) as well as Ziwipeak. I add an egg joke & sardines to their raw once a week. Since getting them a few weeks ago (3 x Chihuahua pups now 18wo, 16wo & 14wo) the change in them, brought about solely by this diet, is phenomenal! I'm also in the process of sourcing some Ester-C you would benefit researching by searching google for "ester-c dog" or "esterc dog" - it's an incredible human compound but used by dog owners for skeletal issues and the facts coming out of USA working dogs, hip d, LP etc is incredible.

Good luck.

[Crazy Daisy]

Sorry quick question. I have always heard that you shouldn't add calcium powder to a puppies diet (Been told by my Golden breeder). Why do vets keep recommending it? Is it beneficial to some breeds and not others or better to not be used at all? Just wondering ;)

The OPs diet is pretty well devoid of calcium, a calcium supplement would be advisable in this case.

Balanced diets do not need additional calcium, a complete dry food diet or a raw diet based on edible RMBs for instance would not need additional supplements.

Cool thanks. I understand if you need to ADD to a deficient diet but I hear of it being recommended as an extra on top of a normal diet and that's what is confusing to me.

[stonecutter]

We have been to a few shows but I only watch, I have so much more to learn before I jump in, instead I stay at home and watch my crufts DVDs and hope one day I can play with the big boys. Lol. And Evan though she hadn't been shown doesn't make her poor quality, she's lived up to all my expectations and has the best temperament. One off the questions on the breeders exam was- best practical advice for selection a foundation bitch- a. Use your first bitch B. use your first title winning bitch C. Consider type and temperament D. Consider wins... The answer c, my girl doesn't need to be Evan though I'd love her to be, a champion in the show ring to be considered good breeding stock. But she will be desexed now and I'll have to dream off competing in the neuter class now :)

It doesn't matter how much you love this bitch and how good her temperament may be, she may not have the conformation

to be a brood bitch.

Why would you de sex on vets say so when the vet may not be fully qualified to diagnose this condition.

Maybe if you told us how this bitch has been fed we may be able to help you more as diet plays a big part in the bone development. :)

You can't show her in neuter class!!!! She has a fault that without repair would be disqualifyable. That means that you have surgically altered the dog to make it be able to show, against the rules and ethically wrong. Im really sorry for you, you are going to have to come to the same realisation that we did with our bitch that had the same problems. She too was bought as a foundation bitch, and we were devastated when it occured, but you have to come to terms with the fact that her show career no matter what class is OVER, as is breeding her, and as you are getting her desexed you are being responsible and realise this. We have known of situations where a responsible breeder has replaced dogs that have the same issues, and your breeder may do the same, and give you the chance of your breeding and showing dreams, but with this bitch its game over.

I'm only new to showing - is it the part in the Diseases and Abnomalities (Section 17 in the Dogs NSW rules on shows) that says "normal development" that this is covered under? (where you mentioned it is against the rules) It explicitly talks about contagious diseases but nothing like this. Does this mean that every exhibitor should be able to produce a certificate that the dog is clear if it is common in the breed?

[Jed]

tibbiesby2

Why would any of that matter now? She has a GENETIC FAULT, and the ONLY right thing to do is have her desexed, and eliminated from the breeding programme, whether she was a breeding quality or not. Her options regarding the dog's quality of life regarding surgery, etc, are a seperate issue. It is people who take breeding animals to orthapedic surgeons have the damage repaired so they are invisible

I think everyone, inclding the op, is gettin a bit excited here. We don't know that the dog does have a patella problem. Lets wait and see before we have her sliced, diced and sterilized.

I do agree if the dog does have LP, she should not be bred from. Autosomal problems are a huge problem to eradicate, and breeding with a dog with LP is not the way to go.

I think this vet is in a practice which is into value adding - and a lot are like that these days, it is all about the bottom line for the practice. The dog is diagnosed with Gr 1 luxating patellas without any symptoms.

To the op - raw meat, raw bones, veges and fruit through a food processor or juicer ... read up on Dr. Billinghurst's "Give A Dog A Bone" and go from there. Or read the thread Pers gave a link to.

There is a growing body of evidence that raw food helps Cavaliers - by helping prevent MVD, or by assisting dogs with MVD. The raw strengthens the connective tissue of the heart. It can never be a bad thing.

My own dogs who are fed raw, bones, veges and fruit, and run about like flies live longer and with no problems, as opposed to related dogs who are fed dry food. I have been doing a survey, the dogs are 10 now.

And why not take your girl to a show and see if you enjoy it? Does your breeder show?

Good luck, let us know how you go with the specialist. It might be worth finding out who the breeder uses, or see if you can find a vet who knows Cavaliers, it is often beneficial.