Breeding

[wolfies mom]

please forgive my ignorance, when breeders say they are trying to better the breed . what does this intail? eg: how do they go about it?

[persephone]

..things like helping to choose the best matched parents to produce pups who have the best of both genetic pools.

to try to breed responsibly ..by breeding from family lines which do not carry serious genetic faults , or other body/temperament problems .

By always seeking to correct faults ..

Breeding responsibly entails much study of the chosen breed, and its genetics.

It involves health testing of any dogs used to breed with .. and then possibly NOT being able to breed with the dogs you thought were very good examples of the breed

it entails waiting for the best chance of producing healthy happy puppies , who will pass on their soundness to future generations

:) I'm sure others will explain it better .

Edited October 6, 2012 by persephone

[Pretty Miss Emma]

I think it's a really good question wolfies mom, I find it a bit of an ambiguous term. So I'm going to be interested to see what people have to say. There are so many things about dogs so how do you find all of them to make them better!! I do think my breeders have done well with my latest little boy though - he's everything I could ask for both in terms of conformation (except for one thing, but he's still growing so that's ok!) and temperament (I couldn't have asked for a more delightful little boy!!). So I guess they're doing well in bettering the breed!

[Dogsfevr]

You have a a breed standard to adhere to & then you have any health testings that should be done .

Of course breeding is an open book area & one person idea of betterment is another,s person idea of disaster & then there are the different registries that look for different things .

We breed to the breed standard ,that is what we consider ideal in all ways ,we health test & hope after all things have been done for the betterment that we produce pups that represent that effort.

Our breed suffers highly from the BYB & we groom pups that are so over sized,poor coat texture,not health tested because there idea of breeding is different again.

[RiverStar-Aura]

I too will be interested to read opinions and thoughts on this topic as it's something I've wondered myself. I've always wondered how breeders were trying to "better the breed" when there are already breed standards in place.

As I understand it, breeders breed to aim as close to the breed standard as possible and aim for "bettering the breed" in terms of health (either trying to minimise the chance of hereditary diseases or by keeping better records of diseases).

I'm not a breeder, nor know anything about breeding dogs, this is just what I believe the term "bettering the breed" to mean. Will definitely love to hear what others think!

[asal]

unfortunately a breed standard is open to interpretation.

so yours is right and anyone elses is wrong.

bit like how many religions are based on the old testament alone?

lot of differing interpretations there too

[dancinbcs]

It is all about breeding soundness of structure, good temperament for that breed and healthy dogs, while still adhering to the breed standard that describes how the dog should look. Done well it is a careful blend of art and science with the goal to deliver to future breeders, as good or better examples of the breed than you started with.

Breeding good purebred dogs takes a lot of pedigree research to find out what faults and health issues as well a virtues the ancestors possessed, then combining suitable lines to hopefully strengthen the good points while eliminating the bad ones. Most health issues cannot be tested for and this is where research comes in. It also involves not breeding on from dogs that are not as good or better than their parents.

One area that breeders sometimes confuse is "if some is good, more is better". This leads to extremes trends as has happened with the progressive flattening of the faces of the brachy breeds or excessive skin folds or coat in some breeds. They are examples of where moderation would have been better and if you read the breed standards a lot would be closer to those standards if they were not so extreme. So in "improving" the breed it is important to not change the essence of the original breed and the purpose it was bred for.

[espinay2]

Not a term I actually like. I would note too that the terminology used by canine councils is 'for the betterment' of the breed which really has a different connotation to 'to better'. I agree that a breed can not really be 'bettered' as it is what it is. There are a set of parameters ( the standard for instance) which defines what the breed is and what makes it instantly recogniseable and distinct. What a breeder can do though is work to improve the individuals that make up the gene pool for the breed. As well as working to ensure other aspects are not lost. 'For the bettermen't also implies looking to the welfare of the breed as a whole and not jeopardizing the future of that breed by degrading the gene pool or bringing the breed into disrepute. For the betterment is as much about maintaining a breed as it is about improving individuals within it which is something that the common use terminology 'to better the breed' doesn't convey.

Edited October 7, 2012 by espinay2

[Allerzeit]

Not a term I actually like. I would note too that the terminology used by canine councils is for the betterment of the breed which really has a different connotation. I agree that a breed can not really be 'bettered' as it is what it is. What a breeder can do though is work to improve the individuals that make up the gene pool for the breed. For the betterment also implies looking to the welfare of the breed as a whole and not jeopardizing the future of that breed by degrading the gene pool or bringing the breed into disrepute.

For me, it is primarily to do with the bolded statement above.

[Poodle Mum]

For me its trying to improve on what I have. eg better fronts :) Choosing a sire that has qualities that are stronger than my bitch. But I would never go for type over temperament.

[Steve]

This is intrinsically the major difference between someone who is a breeder and someone who breeds dogs.

Anyone can breed a show champion, a nice pet, a working dog,obedience champ,agility champ, guide dog, search and rescue dog etc but being able to consistently breed dogs which are predictable, healthy well temperament ed for generations takes a hell of a lot of work, knowledge, and dedication. Without every decision being made by a breeder having that one main underlying theme and an understanding that anything they do today with the litter they are planning will impact on the entire breed if any of those animals are used for breeding way way into the future, It could mean the difference between generations of dogs living quality lives free of illness or temperament issues etc.

Understanding this and taking the road which is sometimes not popular with people who don't understand exactly what betterment of the breed means takes heart and knowledge and courage. Without a breed standard - a base or blue print of what the end goal should resemble and be able to function as over time these things are extinguished.

The people who were founders of the breeds understood that breeders would have their own challenges to face as time moved on. Genetic issues would show etc so they gave us a blue print , guidelines to stay within as closely as possible or to come back to as we went about the task of ensuring every generation was identifiable as a member of a breed and fit for the function it was intended to perform.

The minute one breeder determines that only one aspect of the breed is important for improving the breed - for example a person who wants to breed show champions who doesn't also consider the intended function and temperament of the dog or someone who breeds working dogs who has no concern for how closely the dog resembles its ancestors the breed or at least that group of dogs in the breed is changed.You will have one group which is able to win in the show ring against a current visual interpretation of the standard and another which is producing dogs capable of doing a great job but looking less and less like the original.

Those who want to own one of these dogs can no longer simply decide they want a dog of that breed and their choices become more complicated as they have to seek out breeders who have been breeding to the things they most want in that dog. They have to choose which part of the standard or breed peculiarities are most important to them which was never the intent of those who were working on the breed foundation.

A person who breeds cross bred puppies only has to consider what they see to produce their litter and they get what they get based mainly on luck, a person who is breeding purebred dogs has to have as one of their goals being able to provide a level of predictability - why would we want a particular breed if we couldn't anticipate how its base instincts will be or how much grooming it requires, its management issues are , how it will fit our lifestyles etc

Just as interpretations of a standard will differ so too will interpretations of what is for the betterment of the breed and each breeder will place more importance on one aspect or another and feel anything else is either secondary or irrelevant.

Where the major dangers come in is when only one group is calling the shots and all of the breeders or most breed to their interpretation of what is best for the breed or out of ignorance for what breeding toward the betterment of the breed really is . This gives them no where to go when they realise they have neglected something they should have been taking into account and they become defensive , continue on because they believe only their goals are important and really bugger it up.

[wolfies mom]

thanks i appreciate your answers

[moosmum]

Being honest in your assesment of your breed as a whole,and especialy your own dogs.They aren't perfect,so what can be worked on? Recognise that perfection may be unattainable and subjective,but as a breeder, should be the goal anyway.Regardless of current trends and "Fashion".

Understanding your breed and the problems or "imperfections" that come with it,and striving to eliminate them in your lines,with out introducing a new set of problems.

This is my interpretation.

[mixeduppup]

With working kelpies it's all about breeding all round balanced dogs with a strong work ethic, biddability, good steady temp, good structure and the ability to "turn off". You don't want a dog that is constantly manic about working as those dogs usually don't perform as well as dogs with a calmer disposition. It depends on the line of dogs and what you want them to do but some people breed them to have more force and less eye, others breed for good eye and presence, some breed for dogs that like to work close, with bark and back and others breed for dogs that work wide. The thing that you try not to breed and this goes for everyone from huge kelpie stud to tiny ones is a slow starting dog, most handlers don't have time to wait 10-12months for a dog to kick into gear. If a dog hasn't started showing a good amount of natural instinct by 6-7 months a lot of handlers will avoid that line again.

Sometimes though it's worth hanging onto a slow starter as they can surprise you when they do start, and patience can pay off.

Colour isn't a huge concern to most breeders and if two dogs have skills that complement each other and are of good temperament and sound structure then they will usually be bred, as ability to work goes before all else in the WKC. Also in the ANKC pricked ears are a must for kelpies but in the WKC although pricked ears are preferred, if a dog is a good worker, but has flopped ears it will still be bred. Hope that helps.

[Esky the husky]

I guess it also comes down to the context of the breed and the breeder.

For example in one breed I'm researching breeding to better the breed actually involves some carefully planned outcrosses for the purposes of genetic diversity.

In other breeds this would not be looked on as bettering the breed.

[Steve]

I guess it also comes down to the context of the breed and the breeder.

For example in one breed I'm researching breeding to better the breed actually involves some carefully planned outcrosses for the purposes of genetic diversity.

In other breeds this would not be looked on as bettering the breed.

Yep but that doesn't mean that the people who are doing the talking and calling the shots know what they are talking about or if it really is what is in the best interests of the dogs as well as the breed. So what is looked upon as bettering the breed isn't always what is best for the breed. When you get some saying one thing and a less saying another both believing they are doing what is needed to do the best for the breed its usually the majority rather than the wisest which wins.

[LizT]

So many good answers to what I think is the answer to the question..."What do people hope to achieve when breeding their chosen breed?". What is actually betterment is truly open to interpretation. To contribute to the soundness and aesthetic pleasantness of any breed is to potentially make it more popular and possible in turn find this breed become over represented by all types of breeders both "ethical" "registered" and "BYB hobbyists" alike...which could ultimately contribute to it's over representation in the community and ultimately result in more irresposible breeding, a larger percentage of said breed being found in Pounds etc. and the result a far cry from any "betterment" of the breed as a whole.

So really the end result may be only the betterment of one breeders line and the detriment of the breed as a whole.

[moosmum]

Betterment of breed might mean having the courage of conviction to persist against popular opinion.

A breeder should be aiming for sound understanding of what they are trying to achieve and independent opinion IMO.

Breeding miniature horses I think they illustrate that when we get people saying

"I like XYZ, but every one wants ABC so I must produce that" Due to popularity,ABC is very hard to come by so those used in breeding programs aften have nothing else to offer but ABC colour pattern.A whole lot of horses are then bred with nothing to offer the gene poole other than a temporary fad colour pattern.

By the time this potential breeder has their XYZ and is producing,the fad has moved on,maybe to what the person originaly said they prefer.

[Steve]

Betterment of breed might mean having the courage of conviction to persist against popular opinion.

A breeder should be aiming for sound understanding of what they are trying to achieve and independent opinion IMO.

Breeding miniature horses I think they illustrate that when we get people saying

"I like XYZ, but every one wants ABC so I must produce that" Due to popularity,ABC is very hard to come by so those used in breeding programs aften have nothing else to offer but ABC colour pattern.A whole lot of horses are then bred with nothing to offer the gene poole other than a temporary fad colour pattern.

By the time this potential breeder has their XYZ and is producing,the fad has moved on,maybe to what the person originaly said they prefer.

No harm either way as long as XYZ and ABC are being bred covering all of the other bases as well. Its only when you get someone breeding for XYZ that hasnt covered the rest of the alphabet.

[moosmum]

Betterment of breed might mean having the courage of conviction to persist against popular opinion.

A breeder should be aiming for sound understanding of what they are trying to achieve and independent opinion IMO.

Breeding miniature horses I think they illustrate that when we get people saying

"I like XYZ, but every one wants ABC so I must produce that" Due to popularity,ABC is very hard to come by so those used in breeding programs aften have nothing else to offer but ABC colour pattern.A whole lot of horses are then bred with nothing to offer the gene poole other than a temporary fad colour pattern.

By the time this potential breeder has their XYZ and is producing,the fad has moved on,maybe to what the person originaly said they prefer.

No harm either way as long as XYZ and ABC are being bred covering all of the other bases as well. Its only when you get someone breeding for XYZ that hasnt covered the rest of the alphabet.

Nope, No harm catering to popularity while its backed by independent understanding of your breed as well,but not a sound basis on its own for improvement.