Guest donatella Posted May 28, 2013 Share Posted May 28, 2013 I have an 11 month old (Bonnie) who is a sweet, submissive girl, loves everyone and from day 1 has taken her rank in the packing order no worries. Lucy the 2 year old made it pretty well known from the beginning that she was there first and is a pretty dominant dog anyway, she is speyed. Lucy as always put Bonnie in her place when needed and Bon takes the warning and will back down when told. They can share food off the same plate, play with toys and they follow each other around and are pretty good mates. Lately (the last few weeks), Bon has started to challenge Lucy and it can escalate . It's always over me and my attention or playing with a toy (99% of the time they play really well with toys). I'm thinking Bon is starting to mature and isn't taking no more BS from Lucy being the dominant one? Will desexing help? It's not a huge issue right now but I know if I don't get their attitudes right now I will have 2 right bitches on my hand. They are good mates 99% of the time, they hang out and sleep together so its not that they dislike each other but I would hate for it to change. I have been meaning to desex Bon (she was in season when she was last booked in so I deferred the surgery), will this help her? Lucy will NEVER let her take top dog, she knows very well she was here first. I don't want pack harmony to change Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
~Anne~ Posted May 28, 2013 Share Posted May 28, 2013 While desexing may wind down some behaviours, I have found that dominance is not one of them. A dogs level of dominance will also alter depending on the pack dynamics. Dominance is a trait though. How dominant depends on the pack I have found. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest donatella Posted May 28, 2013 Share Posted May 28, 2013 She's always been the sweet little submissive dog which is why I wonder if its hormone related. There hasn't been any fights but I get nervous when she challenges Lucy as she will not win. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
huski Posted May 28, 2013 Share Posted May 28, 2013 Desexing can actually make this kind of behaviour worse, so I would look at getting professional assistance if you are concerned. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christina Posted May 28, 2013 Share Posted May 28, 2013 (edited) Desexing can actually make this kind of behaviour worse, so I would look at getting professional assistance if you are concerned. At around this age the younger bottom of the pack dog always has a go at challenging. Sometimes its a weak effort & sometimes its full on war. I would have thought desexing may actually either make it better or not alter anything. Which is the usual. Now I am interested to know How could it make it worse ? As I have never heard of this. Edited May 28, 2013 by Christina Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest donatella Posted May 28, 2013 Share Posted May 28, 2013 I'm interested too. Glad to hear that it is normal for her age though. I don't want them in war as Lucy is a mega bitch, she won't win challenging her. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tdierikx Posted May 28, 2013 Share Posted May 28, 2013 It's always over me and my attention or playing with a toy This bit may hold your answer methinks... T. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cassie Posted May 28, 2013 Share Posted May 28, 2013 Is Lucy desexed? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest donatella Posted May 28, 2013 Share Posted May 28, 2013 It's always over me and my attention or playing with a toy This bit may hold your answer methinks... T. Yes I know, but how do I fix this? 1 on 1 time? Different activities. I think they only play up when I'm home. Is Lucy desexed? Yes Lucy is desexed, Bonnie will be soon, but I haven't booked her in yet, will do it next week if it will a difference. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dame Aussie Posted May 28, 2013 Share Posted May 28, 2013 I think this is pretty normal behaviour, as in Bonnie getting a bit older and trying to assert herself, but I don't know if desexing will fix it. I would probably try and address it with training instead. Not sure where to start though to be honest! Maybe remind them both that you decide when they get your attention, not them, some NILIF or something might help a bit? And 1 on 1 time might help too, that way they both know they will get your attention and don't feel they have to fight over it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Diva Posted May 28, 2013 Share Posted May 28, 2013 It's always over me and my attention or playing with a toy This bit may hold your answer methinks... T. Yes I know, but how do I fix this? 1 on 1 time? Different activities. I think they only play up when I'm home. If they only play up when you are home, you are the catalyst. If you don't know how to behave to fix it you may need professional advice. It is natural for the younger one to assert her position as she reaches social maturity but it doesn't have to play out in open conflict. My rule is that any pushing of each other for my attention means all attention is removed, no-one gets to say who I pat or who I play with but me, any attempt by any of the dogs to control access to me means I walk away. Play nice, or no play. For what it is worth, I have run multiple bitches entire and desexed together for decades and never had a serious argument between them. re the desexing question and why it can make things worse, sometimes desexing makes an agressive bitch more aggressive as it removes influence of the female hormones - not just my view, it has been researched, I just don't have the papers at hand. This may have been the effect huski was refering to. In this case I doubt that will apply as the younger one doesn't sound like she is a high aggression bitch, but of course I don't know them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BJean Posted May 28, 2013 Share Posted May 28, 2013 I have an 11 month old (Bonnie) who is a sweet, submissive girl, loves everyone and from day 1 has taken her rank in the packing order no worries. Lucy the 2 year old made it pretty well known from the beginning that she was there first and is a pretty dominant dog anyway, she is speyed. Lucy as always put Bonnie in her place when needed and Bon takes the warning and will back down when told. They can share food off the same plate, play with toys and they follow each other around and are pretty good mates. Lately (the last few weeks), Bon has started to challenge Lucy and it can escalate . It's always over me and my attention or playing with a toy (99% of the time they play really well with toys). I'm thinking Bon is starting to mature and isn't taking no more BS from Lucy being the dominant one? Will desexing help? It's not a huge issue right now but I know if I don't get their attitudes right now I will have 2 right bitches on my hand. They are good mates 99% of the time, they hang out and sleep together so its not that they dislike each other but I would hate for it to change. I have been meaning to desex Bon (she was in season when she was last booked in so I deferred the surgery), will this help her? Lucy will NEVER let her take top dog, she knows very well she was here first. I don't want pack harmony to change No. Pack harmony will change because maturity brings change. This requires YOU to change, not your dogs. You need to change your expectations of the dogs, accept what they are and change the way your two female dogs are managed/housed etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
persephone Posted May 28, 2013 Share Posted May 28, 2013 (edited) Pack harmony will change because maturity brings changeThis requires YOU to change, not your dogs. You need to change your expectations of the dogs, accept what they are and change the way your two female dogs are managed/housed etc. yes- you no longer have a puppy and an adult dog ..You have two adults , so of course things will change , as their expectations of each other , and their ways of communicating will :) We had a desexed bitch here who was certainly no pushover ... she was boss ! there are threads on here about living with bitches, and bitch: bitch fighting .... Edited May 28, 2013 by persephone Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
german_shep_fan Posted May 28, 2013 Share Posted May 28, 2013 I would think two dogs of the same sex female/female, male/male may challenge or fight more than male/female? When I had my mother/daughter pair the daughter was always challenging her mother, never won. But never let a day go by without giving her some curry on the pack leadership issue. Had male/female combos since then and have only had the male challenge the female once and vice versa. I personally don't think desexing makes much difference to dominance issues as I see that as a personality/character trait. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
corvus Posted May 28, 2013 Share Posted May 28, 2013 (edited) I would have thought desexing may actually either make it better or not alter anything. Which is the usual. Now I am interested to know How could it make it worse ? As I have never heard of this. In males it can make a difference in some cases, but in females elevated aggression and emotional reactivity have been statistically associated with desexing. As my supervisor said to me once, they don't know they don't have a uterus anymore. I don't think anyone understands this well enough to know what the mechanism behind this might be, although in males it is much more straight forward. Testosterone = intermale aggression. There are some vague suggestions that desexing males and females can have a variety of effects on their personality. The trends haven't been documented enough to identify what is going on at an individual level. It's just broad correlations at the moment. No doubt there are plenty of people here who saw no discernible change in their dogs after desexing. ETA, yes, dogs of the same sex are more likely to fight than dogs of different sexes, but there's a breed effect as well, unsurprisingly. Back in the 60s Scott and Fuller suggested that the more similar dogs are to each other the more likely they may be to fight. So same size and same sex may see an increased risk of aggression. It's complicated, though. Edited May 28, 2013 by corvus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest donatella Posted May 28, 2013 Share Posted May 28, 2013 Thanks everyone, some things to take on board. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christina Posted May 28, 2013 Share Posted May 28, 2013 Thanks everyone, some things to take on board. Things may settle down on their own. Someone has to be the boss & the younger dog may be back in her place soon without any intervention. Unless they are actually fighting & won't obey your commands to behave I wouldn't worry too much. Desexed Tara is boss over all 5 here but I tell her to stop or take away the biscuit she guards every day growling & she shuts up & behaves. Doesn't seem to cause any trouble when I am out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WreckitWhippet Posted May 28, 2013 Share Posted May 28, 2013 I'm interested too. Glad to hear that it is normal for her age though. I don't want them in war as Lucy is a mega bitch, she won't win challenging her. You'd be surprised Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
persephone Posted May 28, 2013 Share Posted May 28, 2013 I don't want them in war as Lucy is a mega bitch, she won't win challenging her. That's for them to sort out ... and funnier things have happened! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Her Majesty Dogmad Posted May 28, 2013 Share Posted May 28, 2013 Dogs do kill each other so it's something to be aware of. Is there any reason why you have one dog undesexed? Best to get her done if there's no reason. females are worse than males - if they have a fight they don't usually get over it. As a rescuer, I prefer to take on males usually as I find the females are generally more troublesome. That said, I have 3 here currently who live in great harmony. My preference is to only have 1 or 2 and the rest are males, makes for better harmony. Many people only want females because they are "cleaner" or "more loving" - my experience blows all that out of the water and I recommend a male and a female generally but allow your dogs to pick their friends. In your situation it sounds like you need to manage it properly - put one away if you want to play with the other and it starts a scrap but you may also have a scrap when you reunite them - it depends on the dogs. A behaviouralist would be a very good idea as it doesn't sound like you have enough experience to manage it all safely. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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