BDJ

As both an ex horse and dog 'shower', I though it might be helpful to give a comparison (I did led in breed shows with my horses (and they had a couple of registrations - eg: part bred Arab, ASSP, buckskin etc) ). I am comparing non specialty (ie: breed specific) shows - so an Ag. or all breeds show for horses and an all-breeds dog show. The three biggest differences are the number of class you are eligible for, show structure and what you have to do to get 'evidence of success' on the day Classes: With a horse, it was normal to do a couple of classes per registration (ie: their age/gender class PLUS best head and/or best trot and/or best colour and/or etc). So if your horse had a couple of registrations, you could easily do 6-10 initial classes in a day (more if you win and go back in). With a dog, you usually only have one class (eg: Havanese - Puppy Bitch). There may be a guineas etc you might be eligible for - but work on the one class only. Having said that, if they win (or come 2nd) in the class, you will continue to go against others until there is a 'final winner' (either in that category or overall). So you may go in the ring more often - but there is only one initial class you enter for Against different breeds: Horses generally compete against the breed only. Some shows have a 'ultra supreme' where all best of the breeds compete against each other, but not every show, and when I was involved it was not seen as the 'ultimate' and some people would not even stay for it when they were eligible. Dogs are entirely different. Each breed is part of a 'group' (eg: Havenese, Pekinese, Chis, and a couple of dozen other breeds are all in the 'Toy Group'. There is also a Hound group, a Terrier group etc (7 in total). At a dog show, the Havenese compete against each other as a breed, then the winners of all the Toy Group comes together to compete, and then all the winners of the various groups come together to compete to work out who is the best in the show (overall, and all the age groups etc). And the 'In Group' and 'In Show awards are highly coveted 'Evidence of Success' - I wasn't sure what the right word is, so I will try and explain. My first experience of in hand horse show was a co-worker. She would come in to work on the Monday with 2 huge tri-ribbons (and I mean huge - bigger than you would see for any BIS at a 3 day Championship dog show). I was amazed when I found out she had won the equivalent of best of breed. With a dog show, being the best male in your breed is a challenge, and if the best of your breed is just that - Best of Breed. If you are the best male of your breed in a horse show you are Champion, and if the best of your breed, you are Supreme Champion. Win a dog Best of Breed and you may get a handshake from the judge. Win a horse Supreme Champion and you get a huge ribbon. It was not unusual for me to come home from a horse show with a half dozen massive ribbons, when if I had the same success at a dog show, I may have come home with a couple of small (single) ribbons. I was never fussed about ribbons, so neither worried me - but for a 'show and tell' on a Monday, horse shows was much more impressive Having said that, a 'challenge' at a dog show gets you points to become an Australian Champion and above - and I personally found a 20 point challenge certificate very satisfying. No such thing with a horse. Both dogs and horses have point score options which is worked out on show results, but there are no 'challenge points' in a horse show I am not saying either is better or worse (and that whatever level of success you have - it should be fun) - just that having done both, these are the three things which stood out for me.

Without more information, there is no way to know all the details. It would be nice for the original poster to let us know how the pup is - but given the turn this thread has taken I am not sure they will. Talk about assumptions and pedanticness with time frames - struth. 'had him for a week' could mean 6 days or 10 days. I did something a week ago but it was on the Wednesday, it is now Saturday '8 weeks old' does not mean 56 days - it could mean he is not yet 9 weeks old. A friend of mine has a 3 week old (human) baby. He refers to him as '3 weeks old' for 7 days, then he will be '4 weeks old'. I read the thread as a person asking genuine 'newbee' questions about the one of the weird and wonderful things babies do so they can learn what is normal and what is an indicator of concern - not requesting an debate with more concern about blame and timelines from people who don't know because they don't know the facts Mutter over

Sandgrubber - I wasn't saying that the ring is the perfect solution. What has been done to several breeds is 'criminal' and bloody disgusting. I remember the German Shepherds of the 70's - proud, sound (mind and body) beautiful animals. Not the roach backed/down on hocks, screaming/mentally fragile beings of a few decades later. And that is only one of dozens of breeds that have been stuffed up physically and mentally (before anyone loses it - yes there are exceptions in individuals and breeders - I am referencing in general). The point I was attempting to make is that there are pups that simply aren't up to breed standard (pls note, I said the standard, not 'winning in the ring). The conversation seemed to be focused on 2 points. (A) If I pay $X,000 I should have the right to do whatever I want, and (B) if I pay $X,000 it should be good enough to show and breed from. The point I was attempting to make is that not all dogs are worthy of being shown or bred from (regardless of which registration) and that there are valid reasons for limited registrations - and that I agree it is overused (note the 2nd last line in my original comment).

Personally I think limited register should not be used as the 'default', but it sure does have a place. The part of this discussion which I haven't read (apologies if I have missed it) - is that not all pups will be worthy of full registration. There are many pups which genuinely should be on limited register. The differences between registrations is (a) should not be breed from and (b) not suitable for showing. Regardless of the registration, they can still compete in 'sports' (obedience, agility etc), is a representative of the breed and the breeder (has pedigree papers and the prefix of the breeder) etc. Bottom line - some dogs are simply not suitable for the show ring, nor are suitable breeding stock. That is not (necessarily) a reflection on the breeder, their skill, commitment or the manner they care for their dogs - it is simply that some are not 'good enough'. At its core - a dog show is a beauty contest. Correctness to standard, form, confirmation, temperament etc is measured - but to be successful it is a measure against 'perfection' (whatever that means per breed) and some dogs simply don't measure up. Same goes for an animal being considered a good enough representation of he breed to be considered for breeding. Some dog/bitch combinations simply don't work, and even when they do - not all pups are created equal. It doesn't matter if the parents are dogs, cats, horses, budgies or people. I have yet to see the perfect formula where any male A is mixed with female B and the result is ALWAYS 100% uniform and exceptional. That is where limited registration has its place. Pup 'fluffy' is amazing - representative of his breed in type and temperament, an amazing animal that is breeder is proud to register as PREFIX Fluffy, and his owner is delighted with. But unfortunately, regardless of how much his owner wants it, Fluffy just does not cut it for the show ring or the breeding barn (horse reference). But it costs just as much to get PREFIX Fluffy (limited registration) to the point of sale as it does to get his littermate PREFIX Perfect (main registration) to the same point. The part that does peeve me is the 'limited registration for everything'. That is what is contributing to dwindling numbers (but that, together with 'only breed when you need something yourself' culture is a mumble for another day )

Not specific to Dobermanns (or even to dogs in general) - but pricing of any product overseas has pretty much zero relevance to the Australian market. Population (and population density), transportation, access etc all impact costs. I remember speaking to an American woman re mobile phone pricing - she was going off as 'in America all calls are free, we just pay a small amount for data'. She totally didn't get that the area to cover (towers, cabling, signal etc) compared to the number of paying customers completely changed the pricing model. Looking at it from a dog perspective - if someone in Australia wants to import a dog (or semen for AI) from Europe it is expensive (quarantine, flights etc etc). Someone in UK who wants the same dog/semen can do the same a lot easier. I have never done the $$$$$ but it would be a fraction of the cost. And that is just importing new bloodline. There are many other costs (some cheaper in comparison - others dearer). The point is that comparing apples with oranges will end up with a fruit salad - but no comparison. I also agree with finding a breeder you like, and going from there. It is ok to have a price in your mind that you are willing to spend, most people have that. But deciding that anyone who charges more than that figure and uses 'dog shows' and 'bloodlines' means 'they want their pups to be sold at whatever price they are asking. All drama....!' is quite a blanket statement.

The only real solution is to reinforce the house yard. I imagine you are in the bush for the 'natural' world it provides, but you now have a dog which is slowly (or not so slowly) destroying it. It is not your pups fault - it is in her nature and she is basically been given unlimited access to the 'lolly shop'. I cant believe that bones etc could ever replace the 'fun' of the movement, taste and noise of a real animal in distress (she may not have the intent to kill and maim - it may be play to her - but it sure isnt to the animals she is killing). Sorry - in my view you need to either control/stop her access or realise she is not the right dog in that environment. May sound harsh, but i dont imagine she is suddenly going to change and for it to become safe for the wildlife or for her

I can understand that it must be the hardest of all decisions - a young dog who is physically healthy. But, as you said - he does have an illness, it is just that it is not in his bones, or skin etc - it is in his mind. You have done all you can, and even though it would be extraordinarily hard, from the info you have given, there seems to be only one solution. I don't think you will ever get to the point you will be 'comfortable' with the solution - and that says a lot of positive things about you - it would be uncomfortable. If doing the MRI is financially possible and would help you - then do it. But if it won't change the end decision, and the result would not be beneficial for further breeding programs, then it may not be the thing for you. My thoughts are - who is benefitting from his life at the moment. You aren't, your grandchildren aren't, and I imagine his mental state is not much fun for him either. And - he has snapped and launched at a 2.5 yo child. The consequences of the next time (there will be one) may be catastrophic. Sorry you are in this position - absolutely crap

I agree with the above - books come after meeting dogs and owners. Your list is extremely diverse - in size, temperament, exercise, potential noise, training style (and trainability) and 'living with a dog' lifestyle. What drew you to them (I suspect it may have been googling 'most popular dogs in Australia' or 'which dog makes the best pet' (or something similar). Not a bad starting place - but a bit like googling 'what are the best shoes' when deciding to go from walking around the block to running a marathon - a tweeny bit of the picture. I would recommend sitting down and writing a list of pros and cons about getting a dog and deciding if *you* want one. And if the decision is yes, write another list with: how much time do you have each day - exercising (mind and body), feeding, grooming etc inside or outside what is your lifestyle (if you like to 'get a way for the weekend' often and/or at short notice, then either you need to take the dog with you or make arrangements for their care) - eg: if you like camping, as long as you go to 'dog friendly' places, then that is great. But if you 'like to go to Melbourne/Sydney/wherever with friends on short notice' then you will have to consider that do you have work commitments (if you need to travel for work even a couple of times a year for 2 or 3 days, you either need to have a friend/family who can look after them or find a good boarding kennel) hair - unless you get one of a few breeds, you will have hair around the house - only question is how much :-) slobber - are you ok with this, or is it a deal breaker grooming - do you want to brush regularly, or not other members of the household - what do they think and like aesthetics. I know some people 'poo poo' people who like a certain colour or a certain look. I don't agree with that as a blanket statement. As long as what you like is not detrimental to the dog, then why not get what you like. Big, small, long coat or short coat, boofy head and body or fine and slim etc Don't get a dog because family says you should. If you decide you want a dog, then go to dog parks, obedience trials, dog shows - and talk, watch and talk some more. You will soon find out that in every breed there are different temperaments and behaviours. In each of the breeds you have listed, I have met dogs I would love to live with - and also ones that I could not have coped with for 2 minutes. Not to say they were 'bad dogs' - just not dogs for me

Thanks again everyone. He is being moved to a low fat diet (no more dinner scraps etc - mmmmmmmmm ). His weight is good at the moment - he was a tad chubby a few months ago, but that had been corrected prior to the bloodtest (but could still have impacted it). He will get another blood test done in a few months, and will ask for a more detailed one. Fingers crossed all will be better, thanks

Thanks all. I will pass the information on. I think it was a standard blood test, so a more detailed one may be required

Hi, My brother recently changed vets, and a general blood test was done by the new vet. No symptoms or 'triggers' - it was a general 'new patient, let's do one to check everything is ok and to get a baseline'. The dog is a 9yo whippet who appears to be happy and healthy. The results have come back with a very high lipase reading (3 x normal level). Vet and owner are surprised as that level usually indicates pancreatitis or other issue which should be resulting in a sick/unwell dog. However, he is happy, noisy, bouncy etc and showing no indications that he is unwell. Vet advice is to change his diet and reduce fat, and then do another blood test in 6 months (obviously respond sooner if any other indications) Does anyone have any other thoughts or suggestions? thanks

Agree with the above - unfortunately a courier company is not going to change their business model for one customer (or even several). There are so many logistical issues with a company providing a window and or calling in advance. Everything from driver/vehicle emergency impacting schedules to having to build a method for driver or customer to get in touch with you. I have worked 'on the other side' and it is not as simple as it sounds - in fact, unless it is designed at start up it is pretty much a nightmare. Imagine them saying they will deliver in the AM, and a driver calls in sick, or there is an accident/breakdown or whatever - the company is flat out changing schedules and covering the issue. The delivery then comes at 1pm and the customer goes off because '1pm is not the morning'. I have been on a couple of acres, and my dogs never had access to the whole space unless I was out with them. Safer for them and for everyone else. The dogs 2 doors down did - and oh, wasn't it fun (NOT) riding past and having 3 dogs hit the fence barking etc. The owners finally did something after a kid come off their horse and they were sued as the dogs were deemed 'uncontrollable' - yep, even on their own property they caused an impact to others and the court found in favour of the injured party. I love the idea of the drop point - takes the stress away from everyone.

It depends entirely on what you want to do, and what agreement you have with the breeder. From the NSW website: The ANKC issues two types of registration papers, and each puppy bought from an ANKC breeder will come with its own pedigree, either Main or Limited Registration. If a breeder has issued Main Register (blue) papers for your dog, it can be exhibited at a Conformation Show, used for breeding purposes or exported overseas. If the breeder has issued Limited Register papers (orange) it cannot be exhibited at a Conformation Show, used for breeding purposes or exported overseas. You note you wish to breed - again, it depends on the 'why'. If you are planning on breeding with another dog of the same breed and selling for 'general' purposes - then most members of the public will be ok with a parent having limited register. You are still going against the rules though. But if you are wanting to show in an ANKC show, then you will be out of luck. I am not sure what you mean by 'they will be DNA tested'. Why would they be tested? And against what? DNA testing in pedigree dogs is usually to verify the pedigree - not do a DNA test to check the pooch at your feet is actually a Pointer, or a pug or a whatever The fact you say that you can get mains registration for an extra $1000 - I assume either you have a great relationship with the breeder (who believes the pup is of outstanding quality *at this time* [note the at this time - they can either improve or not come on as expected] and is happy for you to breed/show/whatever with mains registration) OR you are buying of someone who is more focussed on $$$$. If the former - great, chat with them about the differences. If the later - well I would be running a thousand miles personally. Just a thought - breeding is not permitted on limited register. So as long as you are going in with eyes wide open. I don't agree or condone breeding from a dog on limited register - it can be done, but is against the rules

To put it bluntly - if she has not been sterilised, and is fertile, then yes, you can breed from her. But - should you breed from her is a totally different matter. The questions are: Is she healthy? Answer is that you have no idea. That requires specific testing on YOUR dog to know that Do you have approval from her breeder? Answer is that you don't. Do you have a mentor or access to someone who can give you help and advice? And I mean someone who will get out of bed at 2am and drive to your house to help Why do you want to breed? Do you have the financial resources (testing of mum, stud fee, vet costs (some known, others unknown (emergency C-section etc if needed etc)? How would you feel if you lost your dog due to pregnancy/birthing issues? Can you cope financially if you had all the expense (incl $3k C-section) if you get no live pups? And do you have the knowledge, $$$ and time if you end up with pups and a dead bitch? Please be honest with your answers - be honest with yourself. If you answer (to yourself) all of the above, and still want to go ahead, then pls do research, research and more research so you are prepared. And one last thought - You love your dog, and you breed a litter. You put your heart and soul in to raising a litter of happy healthy babies. You spend time making sure you find them homes where they will be loved and looked after. You then find out the person who bought the bundle of joy you bought in to the world lied to you and is going to do something you did not want them to do and they agreed that they wouldn't. How would you feel?

I take you point on people jumping on a band wagon, and I certainly don't want that to occur. I will just make one point on my final post on this subject. I would appreciate not being mis represented. I used the word 'ethical' once (not multiple times) and only referenced one example of an action taken to a specific situation. And I stand by that.

Struth Dogsfever - to be clear I will bold and underline what I put in above ........ Can completely understand many valid reasons for both (most listed above) and they have so many benefits ..... I don't remember coming anywhere near stating that people must only use the dog that lives near by, or a substandard animal (dog or bitch).

Interesting topic. I have not had a prefix for 20plus years, so definitely not a current breeder and have no knowledge of the current % use of AI or non emergency c-sections. It may be a non issue, or it may be an increasing situation in some breeds/lines/breeders. Can completely understand many valid reasons for both (most listed above) and they have so many benefits and should never be banned. BUT - from a purely physical, anatomical and sex-drive/behaviour perspective, if either is becoming a frequent occurrence it can have negative impacts. If a stud dog is widely used and does not have natural drive (I have seen AI done with a heck of a lot more stimulation than a natural mating), and that (lack of) drive was passed on, then it will have an impact down the track. If a line has several generations of c-sections, it will be difficult to tell if the bitches are easy breeders or if something has crept in to the line (eg: narrowish pelvis, low/sluggish hormone levels etc). I remember one excellent breeder who stopped breeding from a particular line. The bitches simply didn't have progressive labours. They started, but never progressed to active pushing. Initial bitch had 2 x emergency c-sections (thought the first was 'one of those things'). First daughter bred from was put to a dog from a family whose females were 'easy whelpers', yet she did the same as her mother and needed a c-section. He took (what I believe) to be a responsible decision and desexed both bitches and the other sisters. And they were stunning types. He could have easily kept breeding with elective/planned c-sections (both financially and capacity) - but he made an ethical decision And no - I don't see the correlation with IVF - poles apart. I am not aware the sperm of low sex drive or sexually aggressive male would be used for 100's offspring.

It would be helpful to know what you are looking for in a dog. Do you want an indoor dog or an outside dog? One that can be out of the farm with you all day, or one that will spend most of it's time in and around the house? Or will you be mixing it up? Do you have a 'backyard' on the property, or is it rural fences only? And what sort of fencing is on your perimeter? Are the boundary gates always closed, or will the dog be trained/expected to 'stay home' What is the 'purpose' of the dog? Do you want it to alert you when strangers arrive, or do something about it? Do you have foxes you want it to chase off etc? I have seen some amazing crosses, so whilst this is a purebred site, I am not poo-hooing the idea. But it would be very interesting to know if the pups are farm bred from people with a good reputation (in which case you should be able to find out the work their parents did (or didn't) do and get an idea on potential chase instinct, energy level and work ethic etc). But if it they are from unknown and unreliable sources, then it will be a total crap shoot about what they are (very rarely is a cross a mix of two breeds - usually dad is 'part something' and looks mostly 'that' and the same with mum - so the 'that'X'this' is actually 4, 5 or 6 (or more) breeds mixed up. Add Nature V nurture and it can be a real unknown. Nothing is guaranteed, and I have seen purebreds have very unexpected temperaments - but you have a much better idea

Some great information above. In regarding rehoming - there are two sides to the coin. The issue with you keeping him is that it will require work to fix. You are going to need to find the right solution, do research and stick to a plan. It is highly likely he is not 'nasty' per se - but he has your measure at the moment and has no hesitation in putting you in (what he thinks is) 'your place' If you are not willing/able to put in the work, stick to the plan and become the grown up in the relationship, then issues will occur. And unfortunately that often results in a dog being stuck in the back yard without interacting with anyone. The relationship spirals downward and the dog suffers. In those cases another (right)home is kindest. But - dog ownership is work. And no breed is 'easy' (yes, some are easier than others, but it is relative). They require education, support, training and love to become good citizens. And the most laidback animal will take advantage. I have seen the most mature, sweet, well mannered dog take advantage and develop bad habits if given the opportunity (not aggression). My grandmothers dogs were always 'fussy eaters'. People tried telling her she was the common factor, but nope she said it was each of the 4 dogs she had over a 45 year period. Then when she was in her 80's she became dogless, and rather than get a pup, she took on an oldie. Truffie was about 6 when she got him and would eat anything - a very good doer. Within 6 months he would only eat rotisserie chicken and a certain brand/flavour of kibble. He sure had grandma well trained . My one comment is - if you think this pup is not for you, and you rehome him - think long and hard before you get another dog. One 'non match' does not mean you are a terrible owner, but I hope you don't think (or have people telling you) that if you get a different (easier) breed that it will be fine. The current situation didn't happen overnight - so regardless of what breed/age/gender/size you get next time, you will have some homework on reading signs and understand what is going on in their head. I hope this does not come across harsh - it is not meant to. Just because this relationship may not work out, doesn't mean the next won't. I am just trying to explain 'he is a terrier' and 'they called him a ratbag' doesn't explain everything

Hi, the above info sounds like great suggestions. And you are doing so much to help him have a full and long life :-) I haven't dealt with this exact problem, but like the idea of a 'safe' word. So that regardless of what it is, he learns that if you say 'pineapple' that means whatever it is won't hurt him. And then in 5 years if all of a sudden he hears/smells something for the first time (eg: a train), he doesn't have to learn the train is safe, cos he will know he is surrounded by an invisible forcefield when he is protected by the verbal 'pineapple'

agree with the above - some times an animal is simply too dangerous to be in society, and three attacks to me puts this dog in that category. From what I read, the owner may not have helped the situation (dog escapes control 3 times - seriously??? why not major precautions after the first attack), but there are also times when a dog is just straight out aggressive and unpredictable. I do get a little tired of the 'but he/she is so fantastic with my dog/child/cat/whatever'. How does that minimise/excuse repeated attacks? Imagine that as a 'defence' for a human - "oh, he/she is great with their family, so please excuse attacks on random people". I bet that everyone in the district was terrified of walking their dogs (or their families) in that neighbourhood. I know I would be. I must say when I see the 'but fluffy is fine with my dog/child/cat/whatever' I immediately put the owner in the 'has no clue' pile, and that they are not looking at the situation for what it is, or want to improve it (maybe I am just harsh)

Unfortunately the word 'purebred' has a different meaning across different organisations/animals. Eg: many horse breed associations consider an animal to be purebred if the 'unknown/outcross' is at least 3 generations back. So even an 'educated' animal person may not find the 'his grandfather was half staffy' as a red flag. And a pedigree is just a document of lineage back X generations. I could create a pedigree for the mutt down the road - Sire was Fluffy (by Oscar out of Hairy) and Dam was Bump (by Henry out of Speed). Voila - if the detail was correct, I can honestly sell the mutt as 'pedigreed', and if registered with the council, it is 'registered and pedigreed'. I would hate to be a newbee now - trying to navigate 'registered' 'ethical' 'purebred' would be a nightmare. Especially with so many 'experts' who really don't know there butt from their elbow, but happily sprout random rubbish. Councils, media, vets etc list cross breds as 'breeds' - rarely is it a poodle X it is a .....odle or sum such rubbish. My little cross bred is just that - no idea what is behind him (mum looked poodleish (very 'ish)) - he was supposed to be a poodle x maltese - the fact he is white with big dark grey patches must be from 'his grandfather who was half something' . But the council, microchip and old vet all wanted to list him as a 'breed' rather than a cross. When I do have to list a breed as an identifier (council etc) then I call him a maltese cross - cos that is what he looks like

Hope no one minds me hijacking this thread. @Boronia, re https://vetproductsdirect.com.au/catalogsearch/result/?q=Vetalogica+Tranquil+Formula is this something that can be used as needed, or does it need to be given every day? And does it dope them, or just take the edge off? I have a dog which hates thunder (starts panting and wants to sit on me etc). Happy as a lark with rain and other weather, but the slightest distant thunder sets her off. I have not explored medication as even though she is anxious, she does not panic and there is no danger of self harm (she doesn't try and go through windows etc). I am also a bit hesitant about meds as they can't talk - and I would hate her to be 'zoned out but still frightened' if that makes sense. I figure is she is not 'drugged' I can read her levels as being true and if she does become totally freaked I will know it - as opposed to looking ok but internally/mentally being petrified (hope that makes sense). But if this works and just takes the edge off without putting her in LaLa land, and then I might try it. thanks

Hi, I imagine a lot would depend on how the agreement was documented. In some cases 'verbal agreements' can be binding, but proof and evidence are more tricky (independent witnesses help). I suggest reviewing all written communication (including social media, emails, texts etc). Fingers crossed the breeder has a case and it does not end up 'lesson learnt' :-(

I initially thought that the breeder may not have been 'taking the puppy back' due to distance and ravel restrictions/difficulty etc - but it appears that is not the case. Whilst it could all go great and be a win for everyone (including the pup), it has the potential to be a minefield. As well as the above mentioned issues with paperwork and vet check fees, there also needs to be questions about who is responsible if something comes up health wise later - breeder could say 'you didn't buy it from me - see the person you bought him from' and the other owner could say 'we only had him a week - see the breeder'. Vet checks are great - but they are only a 'moment in time' check, and if I was a vet seeing a pup who had gone through so much mentally, emotionally and physically (changes, travelling etc) so much in the last 2 weeks, I would be giving a bit of leeway in the range of normal if something wasn't 100% perfect (obviously not things like a heart murmur etc - more like 1-2 degree in temp, or slightly dehydrated or wiggly puppy V pain response etc). I know of a pup which was sold and a week later seen to be limping slightly. Breeder contacted and vet check recommended. Vet found nothing definitive on the check (pup was a tiny wiggly squeaky poppet) and recommended wait and come back in a week if no better. Seemed to improve so 'case closed'. Came out a few months later that the pup was dropped by one of the children resulting in a greenstick fracture. It was a melded family with step children and friction around boundaries and different parenting styles etc - so the husband (father of child) decided to hide it so wife (who was the step mother) would not find out and crack it 'cos the rule was the children should not be picking up the puppy unsupervised (duh). He gave the pup human pain meds (lucky he didnt kill the poor thing) before the vet visit. It only came out when the lower front leg started turning out due to the different growth rates. Thankfully no long term harm done (never developed arthritis etc - just looked odd) and they ended up being a great family and owners. BUT - the morale of this story is that people do dumb stuff when they are under pressure