Neuter Shows

[D & D]

I was just trying to give a clubs perspective. I was very very surprised to find out the OVCC was the very first all breeds club in Vic offering the class. It's 9 months since it's been available and a very small club is the first. I'm all for neuter classes as long as the standard of dog entering is up to scratch. I might have started showing years ago if neuter had been available way back then. But if neuter classes are to stay then both shows offering the class, and entries supporting it must grow, or it's doomed.

From a different perspective.....

I've only been showing for a couple of years and have only shown in the NT.

All of our shows (aside from the royal and a few either side) have entries of around 100 dogs. All our shows offer Neuter class, and they have since long before the points were available. I thought everyone did it

I show in group 7 and, at one stage, neuter was our largest class in group.

I just looked through an old catalogue. Of the 96 dogs entered, 13 were neuters

So it can be done.

To the people driving further to enter their neuters: Would it be worth it to add a quick note to the secretary that neuter class is why you're entering their show?

Good on the OVCC for offering the class. Hope more clubs follow suit.

[Sayreovi]

To the people driving further to enter their neuters: Would it be worth it to add a quick note to the secretary that neuter class is why you're entering their show?

Good on the OVCC for offering the class. Hope more clubs follow suit.

I think it's a good idea to do a note. With the OVCC shows, I could have entered local shows that was 30 minutes and 10 minutes away but instead I entered a show a 5 hour drive away just because it offered a neuter class.

Might be worth writing a note to secretaries if we enter away shows based on neuter classes on offer there and not closer to home.

I agree, good on OV for offering the class

[GRD]

I don't want to jump on pglvr personally but I see this a bit, people write on threads that they wished someone else would do or say something to their management board.

If you feel strongly enough to put something on a forum, then you should feel strongly enough to write to your Board/Council etc directly with that suggestion. Don't think that the administrators of our hobby search this forum and others like it to see what the members are saying, most of them don't have the time. Even if they did, they can't do much without something being put in writing and on the agenda for their meeting.

Just a thought for someone involved in Dogs Vic to maybe take back to them. To get the neuter classes up and running they really need to get behind it, promote it to the clubs and maybe offer to waive the fees/costs/levies for this class untill they are up and running.

[darwinroyal]

When you talk about cost you have to take into consideration other entries as well. I drove past a show at the ACT ground last Sunday and drove to Bulli , just because they had neuter. I took not only the neuter but 6 other entries as well. Now I have never been to Bulli show before but entered ONLY for the reason they had Neuter.

This weekend there is a show an hour from my house that I am driving past to enter a show further away again BECAUSE THEY HAVE NEUTER. This time I have entered the neuter + 7 other dogs.

I have also entered other shows in the next month JUST BECAUSE THEY HAVE NEUTER.

WTG Philippa, and I hope the organising committees are advised of the basis of your decision - and indeed the committees of the events you are driving past.

From a different perspective.....

I've only been showing for a couple of years and have only shown in the NT.

All of our shows (aside from the royal and a few either side) have entries of around 100 dogs. All our shows offer Neuter class, and they have since long before the points were available. I thought everyone did it

I show in group 7 and, at one stage, neuter was our largest class in group.

I just looked through an old catalogue. Of the 96 dogs entered, 13 were neuters

So it can be done.

To the people driving further to enter their neuters: Would it be worth it to add a quick note to the secretary that neuter class is why you're entering their show?

Good on the OVCC for offering the class. Hope more clubs follow suit. ;)

Meg, there were a few of us that mentioned at the end of the night that after BIS/RUIS the *only* lineup that had all seven groups was NIS

[pawsaroundoz]

Good on you Yarrowfell and Itsmeg.

Right now I show Connor in the entire classes but as I am not a breeder and never will be (I'd keep them all!) and as at some stage I expect to be living on the road for an extended period I will probably have Connor (checks over shoulder to see if he is listening) desexed, Clancy is already desexed but I would like to continue to show so I have a vested interest in the neuter classes.

Yes there is the thing it could encourage new comers to showing, it could also keep the older comers in the game, especially these days when so many Councils have 2 dog limits so one cannot have a house (or is that bed?) full.

Annie

[Aziah]

The only time I hear talk about neuter is on DOL in this thread or, when people drag out dogs that are clearly pets to get a title on them, and then you have those at shows talk about them.

Does it really matter if they are "clearly" pets? If it brings more people into the show ring who cares? It should be encouraged after all isn't show numbers dropping and there are clearly pets being shown entire as well.....

Yes it does be it Neuter or an All Breeds Show - The judge has to sign a certificate that says

"I am clearly of the opinion that this exhibit is of such outstanding merit as to be worthy to qualify for the title of 'Champion'"

I agree SwaY...

The only time I hear talk about neuter is on DOL in this thread or, when people drag out dogs that are clearly pets to get a title on them, and then you have those at shows talk about them.

Does it really matter if they are "clearly" pets? If it brings more people into the show ring who cares? It should be encouraged after all isn't show numbers dropping and there are clearly pets being shown entire as well.....

Yes it does be it Neuter or an All Breeds Show - The judge has to sign a certificate that says

"I am clearly of the opinion that this exhibit is of such outstanding merit as to be worthy to qualify for the title of 'Champion'"

Then I guess it's up to the judge whether or not to award the dog isn't it? More than likely though unless the dog has a DQ fault they will award it and I would guess they would be lenient towards the neuters as majority are pets.

The owners may then decide to want to compete in the entire classes (well if treated nice enough) and get a show quality puppy. Nice to know that fellow exhibitors still feel the need to bitch about the neuters as well

Neuter classes are like a stepping stone for pet owners and should be encourage to exhibited their "pet".

Obviously every dog has it fault(s), those exhibited in the breed ring are not exempt from that however I don't feel dogs should be exhibited in the Neuter class if they display major faults or are clearly of pet quality.

The title should be earned and deserved and IMO...

[foxyroxy]

I actually suspect that the notion that it has to "pay for itself" in the early days is the key reason that not more shows are offering it. It's a catch 22 situation. Shows don't offer it before it won't pay for itself, therefore the critical mass doesn't get generated (new things always take time to take off and require the ability to participate for that growth), and therefore the numbers aren't there for it to pay for itself.

With something new, you kind of have to accept that it will run at a loss for a while and other things will be subsidising that loss. If it is important enough in the long term, then that just is accepted.

The question for a club considering offering the class at the moment probably shouldn't be "will it run at a loss?". Chances are it will for a while. Instead the questions should be: "Do we think this class is important for the future of our sport and its future growth?" "Do we as a club have a role in encouraging the growth of this class during this 'growth period'?" and pragmatically "Can we afford it?" or maybe "Can we find a way of affording it?". If clubs believe the answers to those questions are "no" then I guess there is a real question on the legitimacy of the class/title. But if there is critical thinking that it is important .... then surely a short term loss is an acceptable thing?

If 95% of clubs sit back and say "we'll offer it when the numbers are there" then the numbers will never be there. I think the Ovens Valley example is one of being a trailblazer in Victoria. It is almost inevitable that numbers are going to be very low for those trailblazers prepared to take the step. But hopefully they are doing it for more important reasons, and believe in its future, so were expecting and are prepared for that anyway.

Of course, sometimes looking at a simple calculation based on numbers in the class isn't a legitimate measure anyway. I'm heading into NSW for three days of shows later this month. I was thinking about doing them, but hadn't really made up my mind whether I wanted the trip this time around. In the end the factor that tipped me was noticing the neuter class on offer. So I decided to enter. Maybe I would have anyway. But equally I possibly wouldn't have. So, yes, I only have one neuter entered to contribute toward the cost of those NIG ribbons. But ..... I have three other dogs entered, the entry fees the club probably wouldn't have received otherwise. They got those entries because they gave me a value proposition I found attractive .... but they would probably never know that if they just looked at my one little neuter entry

Your answer is wonderfully eloquent ...thank you ! I also show more than one dog and my decision now whether to support a show or not does depend on whether they offer neuter or not.

[foxyroxy]

The only time I hear talk about neuter is on DOL in this thread or, when people drag out dogs that are clearly pets to get a title on them, and then you have those at shows talk about them.

Does it really matter if they are "clearly" pets? If it brings more people into the show ring who cares? It should be encouraged after all isn't show numbers dropping and there are clearly pets being shown entire as well.....

Yes it does be it Neuter or an All Breeds Show - The judge has to sign a certificate that says

"I am clearly of the opinion that this exhibit is of such outstanding merit as to be worthy to qualify for the title of 'Champion'"

I agree SwaY...

The only time I hear talk about neuter is on DOL in this thread or, when people drag out dogs that are clearly pets to get a title on them, and then you have those at shows talk about them.

Does it really matter if they are "clearly" pets? If it brings more people into the show ring who cares? It should be encouraged after all isn't show numbers dropping and there are clearly pets being shown entire as well.....

Yes it does be it Neuter or an All Breeds Show - The judge has to sign a certificate that says

"I am clearly of the opinion that this exhibit is of such outstanding merit as to be worthy to qualify for the title of 'Champion'"

Then I guess it's up to the judge whether or not to award the dog isn't it? More than likely though unless the dog has a DQ fault they will award it and I would guess they would be lenient towards the neuters as majority are pets.

The owners may then decide to want to compete in the entire classes (well if treated nice enough) and get a show quality puppy. Nice to know that fellow exhibitors still feel the need to bitch about the neuters as well

Neuter classes are like a stepping stone for pet owners and should be encourage to exhibited their "pet".

Obviously every dog has it fault(s), those exhibited in the breed ring are not exempt from that however I don't feel dogs should be exhibited in the Neuter class if they display major faults or are clearly of pet quality.

The title should be earned and deserved and IMO...

I also agree that the N Ch should be earned , just like an entire Ch should be ( ???) Entire exhibits do not belong to some higher order...people desex their good dogs for many many reasons. We need to get away from that myth that you only desex your dog cos it is inferior. Are the majority "pets"? not so in my experience.

I agree that poor quality dogs should not be exhibited.in Neuter.....poor quality dogs shouldnt be exhibited at all ! I dont see Neuter classes as classes for inferior animals or as stepping stones for pet people. I see the Neuter a bit like I see the gelding in the horse world...it still represents the lines behind it, it can still portray breed type and soundness....& it can be a great ambassador

[Bisart Dobes]

The question for a club considering offering the class at the moment probably shouldn't be "will it run at a loss?". Chances are it will for a while. Instead the questions should be: "Do we think this class is important for the future of our sport and its future growth?" "Do we as a club have a role in encouraging the growth of this class during this 'growth period'?" and pragmatically "Can we afford it?" or maybe "Can we find a way of affording it?". If clubs believe the answers to those questions are "no" then I guess there is a real question on the legitimacy of the class/title. But if there is critical thinking that it is important .... then surely a short term loss is an acceptable thing?

OVCC decided it was important to offer and we found a way to cover the costs.

As for the costs of the sashes, we had good sashes and they were close to $10 a sash, then there was the prize as well.

Just wanted to point out that clubs need to factor in the other entries they get because they offer the neuter class. I have one neuter who is 8 1/2 and has 11 titles to her name inc Dual CH - she is being exhibited in neuter just to give her an outing and keep her busy - not necessarily for the title though she has 25 points, 2 NBIG & 1 NBIS so far . But my point was that I entered Ovens Valley because it meant I could take her and I had 4 other entered of my own, another 2 that I exhibit and another 2 entered because I could help their owner. So because of 1 Neuter entry you gained 8 other entries each day you might not have had as we had two shows here within 20 minutes drive that I drove past . . . I think that they more than covered the cost of the neuter sash.

And I will do it again - so the clubs not offering this class need to reconsider this maybe.

[Rebanne]

I also agree that the N Ch should be earned , just like an entire Ch should be ( ???) Entire exhibits do not belong to some higher order...people desex their good dogs for many many reasons. We need to get away from that myth that you only desex your dog cos it is inferior. Are the majority "pets"? not so in my experience.

I agree that poor quality dogs should not be exhibited.in Neuter.....poor quality dogs shouldnt be exhibited at all ! I dont see Neuter classes as classes for inferior animals or as stepping stones for pet people. I see the Neuter a bit like I see the gelding in the horse world...it still represents the lines behind it, it can still portray breed type and soundness....& it can be a great ambassador

agree

[Rebanne]

Just wanted to point out that clubs need to factor in the other entries they get because they offer the neuter class. I have one neuter who is 8 1/2 and has 11 titles to her name inc Dual CH - she is being exhibited in neuter just to give her an outing and keep her busy - not necessarily for the title though she has 25 points, 2 NBIG & 1 NBIS so far :p. But my point was that I entered Ovens Valley because it meant I could take her and I had 4 other entered of my own, another 2 that I exhibit and another 2 entered because I could help their owner. So because of 1 Neuter entry you gained 8 other entries each day you might not have had as we had two shows here within 20 minutes drive that I drove past . . . I think that they more than covered the cost of the neuter sash.

And I will do it again - so the clubs not offering this class need to reconsider this maybe.

A club has no idea someone entered or didn't enter a particular show because they did or didn't offer neuter class. Someone suggested earlier that notes to the shows you went to plus the ones you drove past might be the way to wake some committees up. I will certainly take it back to mine.

[edgesmum]

The only time I hear talk about neuter is on DOL in this thread or, when people drag out dogs that are clearly pets to get a title on them, and then you have those at shows talk about them.

Does it really matter if they are "clearly" pets? If it brings more people into the show ring who cares? It should be encouraged after all isn't show numbers dropping and there are clearly pets being shown entire as well.....

Yes it does be it Neuter or an All Breeds Show - The judge has to sign a certificate that says

"I am clearly of the opinion that this exhibit is of such outstanding merit as to be worthy to qualify for the title of 'Champion'"

Not all Neuters are "PETS" some have to be neutered for health reasons. NOT for confirmation or lack of type reasons.

I have a neutered girl here who for her own health was neutered. She has already gained her Australian Champion Title when she was just a couple of years younger than she is now, and did her fair share of winning with good wins in the Group level along the way. So one should't tar all Neuters the same brush!

Yes there are some out there who possibly couldn't be, but there lots do deserve to be out there, and I'm not being biased.

[edgesmum]

The question for a club considering offering the class at the moment probably shouldn't be "will it run at a loss?". Chances are it will for a while. Instead the questions should be: "Do we think this class is important for the future of our sport and its future growth?" "Do we as a club have a role in encouraging the growth of this class during this 'growth period'?" and pragmatically "Can we afford it?" or maybe "Can we find a way of affording it?". If clubs believe the answers to those questions are "no" then I guess there is a real question on the legitimacy of the class/title. But if there is critical thinking that it is important .... then surely a short term loss is an acceptable thing?

OVCC decided it was important to offer and we found a way to cover the costs.

As for the costs of the sashes, we had good sashes and they were close to $10 a sash, then there was the prize as well.

To be honest, I don't care about a prize! I don't know why you need to feel like you have to give one! a ribbon is enough for me! :p

[Sayreovi]

I also agree that the N Ch should be earned , just like an entire Ch should be ( ???) Entire exhibits do not belong to some higher order...people desex their good dogs for many many reasons. We need to get away from that myth that you only desex your dog cos it is inferior. Are the majority "pets"? not so in my experience.

I agree that poor quality dogs should not be exhibited.in Neuter.....poor quality dogs shouldnt be exhibited at all ! I dont see Neuter classes as classes for inferior animals or as stepping stones for pet people. I see the Neuter a bit like I see the gelding in the horse world...it still represents the lines behind it, it can still portray breed type and soundness....& it can be a great ambassador

Ok, I seriously think I wrote my reply incorrectly and it's getting misunderstood over and over again.

I do not think that the neuter class is for inferior dogs.

I wrote "it is a stepping stone...." etc etc because it is, for those "pet" people with dogs of a decent quality that have decided they would like to give showing a go, it is a stepping stone for them to see if they like it enough to get an entire show dog.

Obviously the dog needs to be transfered between limited and main and only the breeder can do this, so alot of these "pets" will get assessed before going into the show ring if the breeder is decent enough......after all it's their prefix trotting around the ring.

I don't distunguish between pets and show dogs, they should all be pets anyway I am just trying to get my point across.

[edgesmum]

I also agree that the N Ch should be earned , just like an entire Ch should be ( ???) Entire exhibits do not belong to some higher order...people desex their good dogs for many many reasons. We need to get away from that myth that you only desex your dog cos it is inferior. Are the majority "pets"? not so in my experience.

I agree that poor quality dogs should not be exhibited.in Neuter.....poor quality dogs shouldnt be exhibited at all ! I dont see Neuter classes as classes for inferior animals or as stepping stones for pet people. I see the Neuter a bit like I see the gelding in the horse world...it still represents the lines behind it, it can still portray breed type and soundness....& it can be a great ambassador

Ok, I seriously think I wrote my reply incorrectly and it's getting misunderstood over and over again.

I do not think that the neuter class is for inferior dogs.

I wrote "it is a stepping stone...." etc etc because it is, for those "pet" people with dogs of a decent quality that have decided they would like to give showing a go, it is a stepping stone for them to see if they like it enough to get an entire show dog.

Obviously the dog needs to be transfered between limited and main and only the breeder can do this, so alot of these "pets" will get assessed before going into the show ring if the breeder is decent enough......after all it's their prefix trotting around the ring.

I don't distunguish between pets and show dogs, they should all be pets anyway I am just trying to get my point across.

:p Tollersowned

my first dogs were obedience dogs, not pedigree dogs, but good mates and good obedience workers. My very first introduction was a neutered bitch when I lost my last Obedience bitch. She taught me valuable lessons about confirmation and showing, she was my 'stepping stone'!

I now own and show 3 entire exhibits and 1 neutered exhibit. My dogs are my companions, and I share my life, love and home with my best friends, who, just happen to have fur and walk on 4 legs not two legs! so they are my pets as well.........I also enjoy exhibiting them, socialising with my human friends and their doggy friends.

I too would not enter a show because even though I might have 3 other dogs to enter, my little neuter will miss out.

Edited April 6, 2011 by edgesmum

[SwaY]

I do not think that the neuter class is for inferior dogs.

I wrote "it is a stepping stone...." etc etc because it is, for those "pet" people with dogs of a decent quality that have decided they would like to give showing a go, it is a stepping stone for them to see if they like it enough to get an entire show dog.

I don't see any new exhibitors showing yet, they seem to be existing exhibitors most with older titled dogs. :D

(ETA those with non titles dogs are already existing exhibitors)

From Saturday's Ovens valley show.

Toy - 1 x Cav - 16 yrs, not titled. 1 x Tibetan Spaniel Gr Ch titled, 11yrs.

Terrier - NIL

Gundogs - 1 x Novia Scotia - Ch titled, 8yrs.

Hound - NIL

Working - 1 x Sheltie - 2yrs, not titled.

Utility - 2 x Dobermann - Both Ch titled, 6/7yrs. 1 x Rotti Ch titled, 7 yrs.

Non Sporting - 1 x Std Poodle - Ch titled, 3yrs.

Does anyone have any dogs that they bred out there being shown in Neuter by new exhibitors?

Edited April 6, 2011 by SwaY

[SwaY]

Then I guess it's up to the judge whether or not to award the dog isn't it? More than likely though unless the dog has a DQ fault they will award it and I would guess they would be lenient towards the neuters as majority are pets.

The owners may then decide to want to compete in the entire classes (well if treated nice enough) and get a show quality puppy. Nice to know that fellow exhibitors still feel the need to bitch about the neuters as well :D

And they would do the same if the dog in front of them was an entire poor example of the breed.

[SwaY]

To be honest, I don't care about a prize! I don't know why you need to feel like you have to give one! a ribbon is enough for me! :D

I'm with you a Ribbon is enough, you and I might not care about a prize but many others sure do.

[Yarrowfell]

I'm with you a Ribbon is enough, you and I might not care about a prize but many others sure do.

I would prefer the trophy (assuming it was useful). Ribbons just get put in the cupboard never to see the light of day again.

Ideally ditch ribbons and trophies for all classes in group and reduce entry fees.

[armahani]

Does anyone have any dogs that they bred out there being shown in Neuter by new exhibitors?

I have a potential new exhibitor in Melbourne just waiting with their Neuter that I bred to be given the opportunity to do so once the class is offered at Melbourne shows :D