Simply Grand Posted July 4, 2016 Share Posted July 4, 2016 Quinn, my entire female Aussie Shepherd, has always been what I refer to as an assertive dog. She is the youngest of my three dogs but from about 5 months old she started deciding what the other two would and wouldn't be allowed to do, as far as eating near her, taking toys, pushing past her to sit nearest me etc etc etc. She doesn't barge around stopping them from doing anything and usually doesn't care what they do but if it comes down to a disagreement the others end up deferring to her. With other dogs she will intervene if either of my other two has a problem and she will tell off (as in warn with looks and lip lifts, then bark, then snap and stand over if they don't stop) other dogs for rude, inappropriate behaviour, and fight back if a dog is aggressive towards her. I've also seen her be very appeasing towards certain dogs, and when she was attacked but a dog that meant business she very quickly stopped trying to fight back, lay down and went still. I now have a foster staying, adult female, recently desexed. On initial meeting out in the yard they were fine together, polite sniff greetings then both just pottered around near each other. Once we came inside after some time in the yard Quinn did some pushing around and telling Molly off, I presume trying to tell Molly that she would also need to listen to Quinn in her home. Molly initially avoided confrontation, turning her head away, looking away and down, sideways body but within a day or two, as Molly became for comfortable she started reacting back when Quinn barked and snapped at her. They had a couple of tussles, with lots of noise and teeth snapping but no damage, and I was right there to grab them and hold them apart, with both girls stopping when I (loudly) told them too, but not relaxing. Since then they have been separated (they were only ever together when I was there supervising anyway but now totally separated), and both are going at each other when they are on either side of doors etc, with Molly now happy to instigate as well as respond. I also had Molly out around other dogs a couple of times over the weekend (on lead) and notice that she is very confrontational in how she initially interacts with them. Very upright, tail up, ears up etc. If the other dog is relaxed, she relaxes, if the other dog behaves in the same way she does the hackles go up and I suspect she would snap if left to it, although she is quite willing to move away with me. With a couple of dogs after initially being confrontational then moving away then coming back and getting more familiar with them she tried to put her head over their shoulders and one case started to mount. With one playful, goofy young male and one calm but confident older male she was relaxed and almost played when they did. I don't know her background, other than that before she landed in the pound she had lived in a car for six months when her owner lost their house, she was with the one owner since puppyhood, she is approx 2 years old, she has had puppies (you can see). I don't know if she has had much socialisation with dogs before or whether this is all new to her, but her confidence is coming along in leaps and bounds in the short time I've had her so I think that as she gets more comfortable she won't feel the need to be so defensive up front and will relax more with other dogs in general. I don't think either dog has problem behaviours individually, my impression is just that they are both strong willed and therefore incompatible together. My plan is to continue with the dogs separated as I don't think Quinn and Molly are going to get over their dislike of each other any time soon, unless one decides to give in and let the other be the boss, and I'm not going to keep risking fights to see if that happens. Unfortunately there is some stress involved for all the dogs as although they are separated (Molly on her own, the others together), they obviously know the other is there and they do yell at each other from their separate areas. I am also thinking I will be saying Molly cannot go to a home with another female, if there is another dog it needs to be either a calm older male or a young, easy going male who will let Molly be the boss. In the meantime, does anyone think there is some way of getting Quinn and Molly to at least accept each other without fighting? Any magic solutions? Or is this just one of those cases were two bitches cannot get along? Or, do you think I'm off base with my assessment and need to consider other things? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dogsfevr Posted July 4, 2016 Share Posted July 4, 2016 She wouldn't be staying at our place even if separated as it just instilling the behaviour more & will make the girls become feral & be on patrol . I would say two bitches that just don't get along . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Isabel964 Posted July 4, 2016 Share Posted July 4, 2016 Wish I could help, but not my area of experience. I wish you the best with it. Hope Molly finds a forever lovely and suitable home soon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pjrt Posted July 4, 2016 Share Posted July 4, 2016 Blunt yes, but personally the foster dog would be removed immediately. It's not fair on your personal dogs to endure any stress from transient foster dogs. Re assess whether you are in a position to foster. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
persephone Posted July 4, 2016 Share Posted July 4, 2016 What do I think of that behaviour ? it would be better well away from your own dogs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Spotted Devil Posted July 4, 2016 Share Posted July 4, 2016 Agree with others. Remembering that the foster has only recently been desexed too. Some bitches can be plain bossy. A friend's desexed bitch is a pushy girl - she postured at my youngster, who rolled on her back, and all was fine. She then sauntered up to Em, who tried to ignore her but didn't submit. That did not go down well at all and the other girl upped the ante to some threatening growls and air snapping. I put Em in a crate and the other bitch immediately stalked her so I said "nope enough is enough" and changed the environment so they didn't have to interact again. Last time we were there Em was pregnant and the other bitch just avoided her. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rebanne Posted July 4, 2016 Share Posted July 4, 2016 My dogs come first and I would be sending the foster back asap Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest crazydoglady99 Posted July 4, 2016 Share Posted July 4, 2016 (edited) Sounds tricky SG. Are you fostering with a rescue group? What do they say about the behaviour? I have had foster dogs in my home that simply weren't a good match with my girl. I'd be finding a way to move her to another carer (if it were me). Edited July 4, 2016 by crazydoglady99 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
juice Posted July 4, 2016 Share Posted July 4, 2016 Personally i wouldn't be fostering females when you already have a pushy female. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Her Majesty Dogmad Posted July 4, 2016 Share Posted July 4, 2016 Personally i wouldn't be fostering females when you already have a pushy female. I second this advice. Golden rule no 1 when being a foster carer is - your own dog(s) must come first. Sometimes females don't get along and they don't generally get over it. I've been fostering continuously, often more than one foster dog at once, since 2003. I'm extremely careful about the dogs i take on but if any of them have behaved aggressively towards any of my dogs, they are gone to another carer. It isn't worth it, it isn't fair to your own dogs. Don't feel like you've failed either, when you have to return a dog - generally speaking you've learned something very useful for the rescue organisation, better equipping them to find a suitable home for the dog. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simply Grand Posted July 5, 2016 Author Share Posted July 5, 2016 Yes, I definitely won't be taking any more females, except maybe young puppies. The thing with this girl was that she was supposedly young, very fearful of everything and pretty indifferent to other dogs (which she did show on first meeting with Quinn) but as she has become more comfortable her true, much more confident, nature is showing itself. I have always been aware that any dog coming into the house would need to be a careful match to fit in with Quinn if they were to actually live together, but we've had plenty of dog visitors before and she has either liked them or had a bit of a grumble and snap and then they've been ok to at least be around each other when I'm there. Everyone seems to be coping ok with the routine for the moment, the main difference for my dogs is less time with me in the evenings as I am spending a couple of hours walking/training/cuddling with Molly, so my dogs get me from 7:30pm-ish onwards instead of 5.15pm-ish, and Molly is settling quite well in her room for the night now when I put her in there then. There is still some conflict as we do the moving around and they have to pass each other's doors but I am figuring out how to move household items around so they can't actually get at the doors directly and "fight" at the bottom and they seem to be getting quicker to relax and not pay attention to the end of the house where the other dog/s is/are once they are out with me now (if that makes any sense). It is through a rescue group and I've explained the situation to the behaviour advice contact I have and flagged that Molly would possibly be better off in a foster home where she can have more company and maybe a dog she can play with, but I'm not sure whether they are going to have anyone suitable. She spent her first week out of the pound in a family home apparently where she struggled dealing with boisterous kids and with cats, which now I know her better I suspect was prey drive - the cats, not the kids, I'd say she was just overwhelmed by them as she does startle easily, and would have still been feeling traumatised when she went to them. I feel like she is moving forward quite quickly with me, despite the less then ideal circumstances, and that moving her again right now into another less than ideal situation risks setting her back a lot. She was about to be placed into kennels when I came across her and offered to take her. I'm thinking at this point that I will keep up with the routine and see whether they continue to cope and relax more with that or whether it becomes increasingly stressful. It has actually been helpful from the point of view of finding the right home for Molly as had she gone straight from the pound to a home she would have come across as much more easy going with other dogs than she actually is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest crazydoglady99 Posted July 5, 2016 Share Posted July 5, 2016 I think you're doing a really great job managing it SG. I guess so long as you can manage it, its definitely better for Molly than being in kennels. And as long as your own dogs are coping ok too - don't ignore your gut if you feel they aren't doing so well. Such a bummer when a foster don't fit in as well as hoped. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simply Grand Posted July 15, 2016 Author Share Posted July 15, 2016 Just thought I'd update a bit... Now that I've gotten to know Molly better I get the impression that she hasn't had a whole lot to do with other dogs before. She is still learning how to interact with other dogs and seems to take her cues from how they act, plus looks to me for guidance. She has discovered playing with a couple of dogs and her play style is very puppy-like - massive play bows then crazy zooming, and she has befriended a 4 month old puppy who she gets along great with. On the other hand her instinct so far has been to greet in a very upright, confrontational manner and to move to stand over other dogs' shoulders or to mount them. She is quickly learning more appropriate greeting behaviours and becoming more relaxed but I don't think she will be one to tolerate rudeness towards her or back down from a challenge so I don't think she and Quinn are going to become friends. I'm more comfortable about Molly and other dogs in general though. It's very interesting watching her learn and change her behaviour. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mrs Rusty Bucket Posted July 15, 2016 Share Posted July 15, 2016 I tend to point out dogs I know are my dog's friends with a "who dat dog dere?"... in a happy tone, which puts her in a good mind set for greeting. When I don't say anything about some dog barging up to us and being rude - it can go to hell really quickly as my dog is quite sure it's her job to teach the other dog manners. This is since she's had to deal with one of my brother's very rude dogs. Dogs she's known before that dog - all good, dogs she's met after - each on their own merits and they better do a very polite greeting and make all the correct dog language responses or she wants to scold them. And I don't like her practicing that behaviour. It's unacceptable at our local park - and mostly she only does it there and close to home. Doesn't do it at the beach unless another dog jumps on her head before I can stop it. And there's a lot more room there to see the other dog off without doing any lasting (mental dog) harm. My brother... wanted to have his current rude dog come stay at my place cos he forgot to book doggy accommodation for school holidays but he never put the time into helping our dogs be friends in a polite way. I had stopped taking my dog to visit his place because it was so unpleasant for my dog (she'd end up in the car because his dog would not leave her alone). So I said No. Sometimes you gotta say "No" for your dogs' and your sanity. It's your house and their home. But I would assess each dog on its own merits. I don't think it's as simple as male or female, or desexed or not desexed. Two bossy dogs together - not worth the stress. One rude dog which doesn't back off when told - not worth the stress either. My dog used to be able to make friends with all other dogs but it's not so easy for her now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RuralPug Posted July 15, 2016 Share Posted July 15, 2016 Two "alpha" bitches. Not in the wolf pack sense, just bitchy dominant bitches. Won't work , sorry, without a LOT of management. See if you can swap fosters with someone fostering a more complaisant dog or bitch. And for all future fosters, always ask for a meet in your home with your dogs before you accept. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest crazydoglady99 Posted July 16, 2016 Share Posted July 16, 2016 Lovely update SG. I think the difference in Molly's behaviour towards dogs outside your home is really positive. And, it opens up a lot more potential homes for her. Well done to you. I don't doubt how taxing this must be for you (and with the other stuff going on in your life). I think you're doing a wonderful job managing it all :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simply Grand Posted July 16, 2016 Author Share Posted July 16, 2016 (edited) Two "alpha" bitches. Not in the wolf pack sense, just bitchy dominant bitches. Won't work , sorry, without a LOT of management. See if you can swap fosters with someone fostering a more complaisant dog or bitch. And for all future fosters, always ask for a meet in your home with your dogs before you accept. Yep, that's exactly what it is. Our management routine/juggling act has been working and given Molly's limitations when it comes to a suitable home (ie. she's a massive escape artist, she broke a window to get out the other day and I now have her in a bedroom with metal security screens on the window when I'm not home or have the other dogs out with me, and she needs someone with dog experience to help her learn to interact appropriately with other dogs) I haven't been keen to to move her. I suspect that if I left them to "sort it out", which I NEVER EVER would, Quinn would actually realise she is outweighed and would give in, although she wouldn't be happy about it. And they are 18kg vs 30kg so at least Quinn would have a fighting chance in a confrontation. However tonight Riley (7kg Sheltie) slipped past me when I opened a door and Molly went straight for him and grabbed him. I got her off and he is fine, but I can't risk a slip or a disaster with dogs getting through doors when I'm not home and coming home to a dead dog So I've asked the rescue org to find her someone else. I'd already put in her profile that she wasn't suited to living with small dogs/cats or another female as I'd seen the signs but I thought the prey drive issue was more with small dogs running around. She went straight for Riley the moment she saw him though. I think the tension and frustration of them all has added to her prey drive and made it too much. Thanks for all the advice everyone :) Edited July 16, 2016 by Simply Grand Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JRG Posted July 16, 2016 Share Posted July 16, 2016 I am so sorry to read this SG but am sure you are making the right decision. Do hope that Riley is non the worse for the experience. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
persephone Posted July 16, 2016 Share Posted July 16, 2016 poor Riley I am glad to hear that Molly will be moved on . I hope she finds what she needs . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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