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sandgrubber

If horse conformation followed GSD conformation

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Lol already happening in many breeds, look at Standardbreds and quarter horses, even some Warmbloods are all front end and no back end. It comes from mainly assessing one gait - the trot. So the movement at the trot is considered more important than walk, canter, gallop, and the trot is selectively bred for so that the other gaits  suffer. It is rare to find a standardbred with a comfortable rideable canter, and forget trying to canter a halter bred quarter horse. It is predominantly a by product of in hand showing classes which by necessity mainly focus on trot since us mere humans can rarely keep up with a galloping animal on a lead without hindering its movement. By contrast a working animal needs to be sound and functional at all gaits. I believe some form of performance testing needs to be integrated into showing and breeding to prevent these systemic issues persisting. Some warmblood breeds when being assessed are run loose around an arena at all gaits so that walk, trot and canter can be assessed and given individual marks, this helps to prevent a focus on one gait as each gait is given the same weighting. This is in addition to the ridden testing which is undertaken for most breeding stock. 

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11 hours ago, sandgrubber said:

Sorry if this offends . . . or is kicking a dead horse . . . but I think it's clever

BUGGER . . . the formatting won't post.  Here's the source.

http://terriermandotcom.blogspot.com/2017/02/lets-do-to-horses-what-we-did-to.html

 

takes the skeletal changes in GSD conformation and applies them to a horse.

 

Well it certainly doesn’t offend me, but I worry that we are kicking a dead horse :mad  :mad  :mad.  It just makes me cry when dog show videos, etc pop up in my FB.  To see German Shepherds winning awards while walking on their back elbows is tantamount to cruelty.  Judges and breeders should be totally ashamed of themselves.   I actually saw a clip of puppies playing and they were already on their back elbows ..... sorry don’t know proper name.  Makes me so angry and sad.  Same thing has happened to flat faced breeds to the extent that many of them have enlarged hearts because they can’t breathe properly, they have to have soft palate operations, reconstructions, etc etc.  What the #### is wrong with people?  

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I'm sure this has been discussed to death, but I have not actually looked at a GSD for many many years. Watching the Westminster show on YouTube I was quite shocked to see Rumor. While she is gorgeous in her own right, I was quite taken aback at the change in the breed and can't see how it has done them any good. 

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Doesn't make much sense to me, GSDs never had and shouldn't have the same conformation as horses 

 

Rumor is an American style dog and whilst not as extreme as some over there, still isn't typical of the style show dogs in Australia. 

 

Photo attached is the top winning bitch in Vic (as well as elsewhere) 

IMG_0422.JPG

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1 hour ago, ish said:

Doesn't make much sense to me, GSDs never had and shouldn't have the same conformation as horses 

 

Rumor is an American style dog and whilst not as extreme as some over there, still isn't typical of the style show dogs in Australia. 

 

Photo attached is the top winning bitch in Vic (as well as elsewhere) 

IMG_0422.JPG

Are you saying that locomotion is fundamentally different between dogs and horses?  My gut feeling (couldwi be wrong) is that angulation close to 90 degrees has a physical advantage.  Physical as in physics.  I can't think of any naturally evolved animals that have the peculiar rear end conformation of the modern show GSD.  Even the bitch you show looks, to me, like a building that on the way to eventual collapse because the stresses are all wrong.

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20 hours ago, WoofnHoof said:

Lol already happening in many breeds, look at Standardbreds and quarter horses, even some Warmbloods are all front end and no back end. It comes from mainly assessing one gait - the trot. So the movement at the trot is considered more important than walk, canter, gallop, and the trot is selectively bred for so that the other gaits  suffer. It is rare to find a standardbred with a comfortable rideable canter, and forget trying to canter a halter bred quarter horse. It is predominantly a by product of in hand showing classes which by necessity mainly focus on trot since us mere humans can rarely keep up with a galloping animal on a lead without hindering its movement. By contrast a working animal needs to be sound and functional at all gaits. I believe some form of performance testing needs to be integrated into showing and breeding to prevent these systemic issues persisting. Some warmblood breeds when being assessed are run loose around an arena at all gaits so that walk, trot and canter can be assessed and given individual marks, this helps to prevent a focus on one gait as each gait is given the same weighting. This is in addition to the ridden testing which is undertaken for most breeding stock. 

one reason why I like stock horse classes, although the last time I was at a stock horse show was about 25 years ago so they might have changed since then.   I completely agree with about the problems that focussing only on the trot cause and it's been bothering me for years with whippets.  I believe they've been bred now for generations to look good at the trot and stack, and it has changed their appearance so much that the modern whippet no longer appeals to me at all.  This might also apply to other breeds I don't know.  I'll probably be shot down for saying it, but it's my opinion.  I'm hoping now that lure coursing seems to be taking off it will have a positive influence on their conformation.  We shall see.

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19 hours ago, Dame Danny's Darling said:

Well it certainly doesn’t offend me, but I worry that we are kicking a dead horse :mad  :mad  :mad.  It just makes me cry when dog show videos, etc pop up in my FB.  To see German Shepherds winning awards while walking on their back elbows is tantamount to cruelty.  Judges and breeders should be totally ashamed of themselves.   I actually saw a clip of puppies playing and they were already on their back elbows ..... sorry don’t know proper name.  Makes me so angry and sad.  Same thing has happened to flat faced breeds to the extent that many of them have enlarged hearts because they can’t breathe properly, they have to have soft palate operations, reconstructions, etc etc.  What the #### is wrong with people?  

They're called hocks

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Well the best of breed in the GSD at Crufts last year caused a furor, it was a bitch that was so sloped in the back it's hind quarters seemed to have no strength in them, so she would have not been able to do the job that the GSD was bred for, herding, the old type could have worked all day, the show GSDs of today upset me to see what they have done to them as they would not be strong enough in the hindquarters to work for even a half an hour, I remember the beautiful GSDs of yesteryear they were such majestic strong looking dogs, something to be admired.

After the bitch won BOB at Crufts, there was an outcry as to her conformation, the KC decided to look into what they are doing with the breeding programmes and I believe it is an ongoing thing in the UK, they had hundreds of text and emails from a concerned general public.

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I was watching a class being judged last year and many of the dogs as they walked away from me couldn't even move without looking like they might fall their hinds, let alone those rubber joints were swaying from side to side so. the weakness was sickeningly apparent.  gave crooked as a dogs hind leg a whole new meaning, from behind the bone from the hip to the stifle went in one direction , from stifle to hock another, and hock to foot another.  From a side view, yes the bones angle, although as said here, they never did to the degree now strived for, but they sure are not supposed to to that degree from behind. the strain on the ligaments must be enormous

 

I well remember the first hunching imports of the 'NEW"  "IMPROVED" GSD's when they arrived and thought "have their breeders gone mad.  sadly the lemmings flocked to the new track

 

Edited by asal

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GSD people are damned if we do and damned if we don't - if we say nothing people believe that all GSD are like the extremes sometimes shown in the media and if I say here's an example of what they really look like, showing none of the extremes, people still aren't convinced. I don't understand it, if you don't like it don't get one - why all the (mostly uneducated) bashing? There is so much 'seems to me' and 'in my opinion' in these threads - everyone is entitled to their opinion but most of it seems to be based from the extremes in the media! Surely not a good argument 

 

Yes I am saying horse locomotion is different to dog - how can it not be with 2 structurally different animals? Look up the standard of a horse breed and compare it with that of a dogs, it's bound to be vastly different. Remember too that the dogs of yesteryear were part of a breed in development, so some changes are to be expected. 

I am not saying the breed is without faults and definitely there are worrying trends that creep in especially overseas. I am saying that there are lots of people who breed for soundness and immoderation and care for the breed long term. My dogs are just like any other dog, they run around, chase rabbits, run with the bike etc 

 

The bitch who's photo I have used it 7 years old and totally sound in every way. She is not over angulated, she doesn't have a banana back, she doesn't walk on her hocks. She's won a lot - she is what is being promoted as correct here in Australia. 

IMG_0424.JPG

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I'm sorry. It must be very hard to be involved in a breed that is such a hot topic of controversy, but the fact is, compared to the GSD we had as children, even your bitch looks extreme to me. 

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So I am completely ignorant of the reasons for the trend of the sloping back in GSDs. Can anyone enlighten me as to why this is a desired trait and is there any other breed where this trait is appearing/desired? 

If it is only GSDs, what is it about their working life that means this is advantageous?

Honestly curious, not after an argument, just don't understand it.

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@WoofnHoof you raise a really interesting point. I've always said that my working Springers struggle to maintain a trot but they can run and turn on a dime in a way that never ceases to astound me.

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@ish GSDs are a popular breed, of course most people have an interest in their current state and their future. My next dog will be a shepherd (but I want a white one!) so I have more than a passing interest in which lines and types are available out there. Sure there are some differences in equine and canine conformation but the basic gaits and principles of locomotion are the same, and strength of both fore and hind quarters are critical factors in the soundness and workability of an animal at all gaits, not just the trot. 

 

@teekay the trot is a lateral gait, so the lowered hind provides more reach from the hindquarters and a longer stride. The trot is an efficient, ground covering pace. Canter/gallop utilises a different musculature, requiring more push from the hind rather than reach, and so selecting too much for one gait can be at the cost of others. The interpretation of the breed standard also contributes to the change in the slope of the loins over time, the degree to which slope is acceptable seems to vary a lot in the GSDs depending on the judge or breeder. 

 

Yes @The Spotted Devil even without the obvious morphological changes you can still see differences in the movement and musculature between working and show line animals, certainly some of the changes in dressage horses have been really interesting, in moving to a lighter more athletic frame we have achieved greater reach in the extended and lateral movements at the cost of collection and ability to carry weight in the hindquarters in piaffe and passage. I think differences in dogs seem even more pronounced in some ways than horses because from memory dogs mainly present at halt (stack) and trot, so not much walk shown either? 

 

It really is an interesting topic because it highlights the vast differences in what is required for show over what is required for work, in a pet or show dog it's probably neither here nor there whether it has a balanced canter/gallop gait, but I think much of the concern with GSDs also stems from a high prevalence of HD within the breed in the past, and so any perceived weakness in the hind is even harder to justify or look past, whether the two traits are related though is a whole other question. 

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12 hours ago, ish said:

Doesn't make much sense to me, GSDs never had and shouldn't have the same conformation as horses 

 

Rumor is an American style dog and whilst not as extreme as some over there, still isn't typical of the style show dogs in Australia. 

 

Photo attached is the top winning bitch in Vic (as well as elsewhere) 

IMG_0422.JPG

I'm glad someone said it. How can a horse and a dog be compared and suggested that their conformation should be the same!

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1 hour ago, Danois said:

I'm glad someone said it. How can a horse and a dog be compared and suggested that their conformation should be the same!

Gait. Locomotion. Footfalls. All very similar since both species walk on their digits. But hey I'm no expert on biomechanics so feel free to expand on why you think the comparison is soooo ridiculous. 

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The dogs I grew up with were along the lines of Hector v Linksreim.  If the modern dropped back end is better than him, then why hasn't every shepherding breed lost is back end down to the ground?  Fact is someone somewhere decided to morph the standard and label the result as "improved" Some agree its an improvement.  the percentage who agree and who disagree would be interesting.  But if you want to show it v pet, then cant rock the boat now the ship has sailed

 

Hector is the first dog in the link below. for two entirely different species , he and Rahma (the pony pictured below) are remarkably similar prior to the improvement of his breed. ditto for the quarter horse of the 1960 compared to the photos of the world champions of 2016.

 

 

 

https://www.google.com.au/search?q=EARLY+GERMAN+SHEPHERDS&client=firefox-b&tbm=isch&imgil=ZB0em8yYGYuulM%3A%3Bo84YRc1bPatKeM%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fgermanshepherdsetc.com%252Fphylax-society%252F&source=iu&pf=m&fir=ZB0em8yYGYuulM%3A%2Co84YRc1bPatKeM%2C_&usg=__G-oXPXKS5xT_9YXLPHHD3QE5uX4%3D&biw=1920&bih=971&ved=0ahUKEwiN18vG2JjSAhXKFJQKHYUaBqwQyjcINA&ei=3L2nWI35Msqp0ASFtZjgCg#imgrc=ZB0em8yYGYuulM:

 

Although Hector and his ilk certainly are conformationally on the same plane as a riding horse. The halter scene in the horse world has been busy making similar changes in alternate directions in the name of winning also, for example the american halter  quarter horse, they lost their hocks

 

https://equineink.com/2011/04/24/have-halter-horses-become-the-bodybuilders-of-the-equine-world/

 

This new breed of halter champion are on the main un rideable by 8 due to arthritis.

 

The arabian pony below at 23, Ridden by their team Captain, was one of the team to enable New Zealand to win the first World Mounted Games held in the southern Hemisphere, at 32 she is still sound and arthritis free.

 

Edited by asal

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The QH has morphed too.

 

this is  the original King ranch horses and Wimpy.

have to hang out till the 4 minute mark to see them actually moving not just posed.

 

and this is the first legend to change them

 

http://www.circledhorses.com/three_bars_story.htm

 

 

Before Impressived changed everything into a whole different tangent

 

 

These are horses, I admit, but should we question what changes/improvments are done to any breed or species promoted under the banner of "improved"?

Edited by asal

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