Testosterone - How Long Till Levels Drop After Desexing?

[Tazar]

Hi,

Looking for additional information on testosterone levels after desexing puppy, 15 weeks old, and subsequent experience on changes in aggression levels as a result. Have reseached with average saying 2-6 weeks for levels to drop and 50-60% resulting in change in aggressive behaviour.

Puppy displaying severe resource guarding issues since at least 8 weeks of age (eyes glazed minimum, 1/2 hour recovery time) and was very well developed sexually, hence early desexing.

A behaviour modification progam has been in place for the last 3 weeks with significant changes but underlying issue still there, very unpredictable and again escalating since desexing Behaviour modification to continue with the assistance of medication at vets recommentaion for maximum of 4 weeks.

Just looking for anything further anyone may be able to add to help this little lab guy out.

thanks in advance :)

[mixeduppup]

What type of behaviour modification? It can be up to 12 weeks to reap the full benefits of desexing for some dogs. My vet said it's about 50% testosterone drop but if the behaviour is due to bad temp or behavioural issues then it won't make much difference, just a bit easier to control sometimes.

[Tazar]

Behaviour mod consists of the usual, teach basic obedience (very basic given the age, sit and bed stuff but will build gradually) and letting the dog know what is appropriate behaviour and what is not.

So young to have such problems

[asal]

Want the good news only?

or the 11% of bad news?

That's the percentage the vets tell us anyway that there is NO significnt testosterone level drop.

considering in the past, no one told our cat he was now a neuter so spent the remaining 18 years of his life maintaining his top cat in the block reputation...

Then theres doofer, nobody told him and hes now 7 years old.

Then theres the welsh cob, gelded at 6 months, great teaser, the mares fall to their knees to him

Then theres Drama, gelded at 4 months, well, again the mares head for him like bees to honey.

somehow this place looks like every one of the 11% landed here..

[asal]

I have threatened my vets life and health but he maintain's he did his job, mother nature makes the dammed stuff not just in the teste's.

I know he is telling the truth, he even removes all the cord he can as well........

what else is there to take?

[Tazar]

Seeking experience in similar circumstances.

I hope there will be good but know there will be bad...

[mixeduppup]

Two different stories. I had my Maremma done at 12 weeks and he's been a beautiful boy ever since.

Did my JRT at 12 weeks and he's a sexual deviate I swear. He humps every other dog's head if he can and when I was away i left him with a friend and apparently he tied for a good 20 mins with her girl. He's had them completely removed but he shows no difference at all.

[BC Crazy]

My girl was a pretty severe resource guarder at 12 weeks. She was nasty. We, well OH took over feeding her as I was intimidated by her as I wear my heart on my sleeve, "too soft". He worked with her, gave her half a chicken wing, walked away, then returned to deliever the other half. Over time this method worked wonders. We call it the jackpot method, give half of a treasured food, wait for a short but unknown time, then return with the other half :) she was desexed at 6 months, & now is almost 2. Not a sign of food aggression to this day :)

Edited October 22, 2012 by BC Crazy

[persephone]

If this little one was aggro from 8 weeks - I doubt testosterone would have been the greatest cause.... were his testosterone levels very high(higher than normal for adolescents) when tested ?

I would have been looking at brain chemistry - he may well have been born with a propensity to this behaviour.

If you are in Melbourne ..and are committed to finding a cause..then may I recommend you contact Robert Holmes, atANIMAL BEHAVIOUR CLINIC he is a veterinary behaviourist and has been doing this for many many years ....

Edited October 22, 2012 by persephone

[greytpets]

We work on at least 6 weeks for a real change but can take up to 3 months. During this period they can actually get worse as they are going through a big hormonal change that can make them more stressed & agitated.

I also have a JRTx desexed at 5mths that doesn't realise he is desexed but we usually eventually have good results with all the male greyhounds we desex.

[tdierikx]

What is the dog resource guarding? Food? Toys? His human?

I've had foster pups who have had to push, shove, and sometimes fight, to get their share of food as part of a large litter. What I do with those pups is to make sure they have food at all times, so that they learn that they are never going to have to fight for their share.

I also have my own adult dogs (who know to "leave it")in close vicinity of the pup - so it learns that the other dogs aren't going to "steal" its food.

Pups that resource guard toys get more toys than they know what to do with - they seem to lose interest in them as being "special" fairly quickly.

Pups that guard their human can be a little more tricky, but I tend to physically ignore them when they are being nasty, and if needed, will separate them physically for a short time (like giving a time out) until they settle down.

Most pups learn things rather quickly if they are inclined to want to please you.

Did you get your pup from a registered breeder? Have you asked the breeder for some advice? Same if you got the pup from a rescue - ask them for advice also...

T.

[BC Crazy]

If this little one was aggro from 8 weeks - I doubt testosterone would have been the greatest cause.... were his testosterone levels very high(higher than normal for adolescents) when tested ?

I would have been looking at brain chemistry - he may well have been born with a propensity to this behaviour.

If you are in Melbourne ..and are committed to finding a cause..then may I recommend you contact Robert Holmes, atANIMAL BEHAVIOUR CLINIC he is a veterinary behaviourist and has been doing this for many many years ....

Excellent response Persephone. At 8 weeks Testosterone wouldn't be in high levels, too young for that. Maybe some sort of chemical imbalance going on. Could be genetic too? A really good Vet/behaviourist sounds like the best idea.

I know with my girl she wasn't a resource guarder at 8 weeks but I couldn't take her home till 12 weeks, so not sure why but in those 4 weeks she became very guarding over her treasured chic wing. But never anything else. You could put your hand in her food bowl, grab her fav toy, no sign of aggression.

Edited October 22, 2012 by BC Crazy

[Tazar]

Thanks for the replies.

He guards things he steals or toys so if you try to take them from him he growls and if you persist he attacks you (yes attacks - lunges, bites, non stop).

If you touch him when he is eating he stiffens, then growls then attack and he remains angry for 1/2 hour or so, meaning when he finishes his food, you cannot get near him as he attacks.

If you hand feed him he will attack the hand you are feed him from, eat the food then continue attacking the hand (the hand is heavily gloved of course). If you give him food then try to pat him with the other hand he will attack that.

If he is sleeping and is disturbed, same as above, growl then attack.

When he humps his blanket, bed etc, it goes for a long time and he gets a glazed looked. He will stop mid way and almost be frozen in the moment, totally blank, eyes glazed.

Sounds ridiculous, extreme, etc, I know..... This behaviour started the day he was picked up so 8 weeks old and has gotten worse. He was from a 'one-off' BYB and the breeder (?) said he is 1 of 8 puppies and there have been no problems with the others. Always had food and was whelped in the barn. He was the last of the litter left.

Improvements have been made, was only guarding some items he steals sometimes, he can be hand fed and patted, still stiffens if touched when he is eating out of his bowl. (he doesn't just eat he hoovers his food, without coming up for air, so to speak.) Recovery from aggression is now in seconds as opposed to 15-30 minutes.

Given his development the vet said he would desex him which was last week. I don't believe his hormone levels have ever been tested. He behaviour has apparently reverted back and in some cases is worse. (this may be because he is sore and sorry for himself and he has been given a little slack}.

This is why I am seeking other DOLer's experience with testosterone levels and behaviour changes. Thanks for the info so far, I guess we are looking at up to 3 months for changes from the desexing, IF this is a significant contributing factor to his aggressive behaviour.....

Edited October 22, 2012 by Tazar

[persephone]

While I am glad there was some improvement , I still strongly suggest a VETERINARY BEHAVIOURIST to check everything , as it would be awful to spend a lot of time & love on this pup ,only to find that there is a problem with genetics, or something like a brain tumour ...

It is worth remembering too , that by consulting the specialist, you are given the best and most effective handling 'tools' for this problem .

IF the problem is something like total lack of respect due to being whelped like he was ..and having to compete for everything ..maybe because he was smaller .. then getting a specialist help would again , provide the best approach to management .

Pup is getting bigger every day, too ..and a bite in the wrong spot could be very damaging

If you hand feed him he will attack the hand you are feed him from, eat the food then continue attacking the hand (the hand is heavily gloved of course). If you give him food then try to pat him with the other hand he will attack that.

This behaviour really does need examining .. both pup and owner ... and , unless testosterone levels were/are measured , there is no way to tell if it was/is part of the problem ..as an improvement in a few weeks/months could be due to the age , the extra training ...or a healing of a lesion or something ...

No way would I recommend just a 'wait & see if it was the testosterone' approach ..for all sorts of reasons .

Edited October 22, 2012 by persephone

[BJean]

Desexing simply stops the dog's ability to reproduce and any sexual based aggression (as well as a few other things good and bad but that is not this topic).

Your dog is growling at you because of the relationship between you and your dog.

IT IS A PUPPY.

It was wrong of your vet to suggest desexing would fix the issue between you and your dog.

NB: If this pup behaved this way at 8 weeks, probably that is the base nature of the puppy.

Not that the puppy is a lunatic, but that the puppy is reactive.

What breed is the puppy?

Edited October 23, 2012 by lilli

[juice]

What Lilli said

Get the help of a behaviourist, vets treat health problems, this is to do with you and the dogwhich needs proffessional help, not a vet .

[BJean]

If you hand feed him he will attack the hand you are feed him from, eat the food then continue attacking the hand (the hand is heavily gloved of course). If you give him food then try to pat him with the other hand he will attack that.

Everytime you do this you teach him success.

I have no idea what you try to achieve by feeding the dog with one hand and then being unpredictable (from the dogs point of view) and patting it with a gloved.

Two of my own dogs would take my arm/hand off for that. I can go near them when they eat of course, but I cant be a banana and introduce random objects into what they regard as a very serious time.

If he is sleeping and is disturbed, same as above, growl then attack.

of course...

There are a few things you have written, the way you describe what is happening and what you see in the dog, which to me indicate you need an objective assessment (ie professional intervention) of what is actually going on. Don't assume the dog is nuts and its eyes are glazing over. Usually what you see is not a blank meaningless stare, but a blank stare of intent.

Be careful.

And seek professional help from someone who is experienced working with HA in dogs.

(and get rid of the glove).

Edited October 23, 2012 by lilli

[Tazar]

Desexing simply stops the dog's ability to reproduce and any sexual based aggression (as well as a few other things good and bad but that is not this topic).Your dog is growling at you because of the relationship between you and your dog. IT IS A PUPPY.It was wrong of your vet to suggest desexing would fix the issue between you and your dog.NB: If this pup behaved this way at 8 weeks, probably that is the base nature of the puppy.Not that the puppy is a lunatic, but that the puppy is reactive. What breed is the puppy?

Thanks for the input. IMHO desexing can change the behaviour of a dog beyond sexual based aggression and know I am not alone in that thinking.

The dog is growling at everyone so it is not a single relationship we are talking about here.

Perhaps the behaviour is in its base nature. It is very severe re activity if that is what the issue is. The puppy is a labrador.

The puppy is having further testing done to rule out any medical issues that may be causing or contributing to the behaviour.

[Nekhbet]

That pup needs a serious temperament test ASAP. Desexing is not going to change his behaviour if he has been displaying it from 8 weeks old and how do I know? Because I lay down a lot of money on a dog I get at that age showing the guarding/drive traits I want and will grow. My bitch was guarding the whelping box and my back step at 7 weeks of age, she's 2 years old now and she's no different. Her brother was the same and in fact by 7 months old was ready to take on the world temperament wise. Your BYB sold you a dog with probably a genetic temperament problem. Get the dog assessed by a professional ASAP as well as working out a proper behavioral regime, but desexing is by no means your cure at all in fixing this behavior.

IMHO desexing can change the behaviour of a dog beyond sexual based aggression and know I am not alone in that thinking.

You're buying a lottery ticket on that theory. Unless the dog has massive hormonal problems, which puppies do not, it can help make a dent in the dogs attitude at times. But you dont know until you try it and then it can swing one of three ways - better, worst, or nothing at all.

Frankly, you should have returned the pup to the breeder by 9 weeks with this level of reactivity which is NOT tolerated in the breed. Either that or he is not pure labrador.

Edited October 23, 2012 by Nekhbet

[minimax]

If you're not experienced in dog training, you're probably making the issue worse by constantly provoking him and teaching him that his behaviour is acceptable.