tdierikx Posted November 7, 2013 Share Posted November 7, 2013 As with any training tool we use on our animals - if used correctly, there should be little to no damage possible... I like check chains for training myself. One of my dogs has a harness - but that's because she is mobility challenged and has a hyersensitive spot on her neck right where a collar would go - so regular collars are out for her... *grin*... the harness also allows me to give her assistance quickly if she stumbles. T. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kanae Posted November 7, 2013 Share Posted November 7, 2013 I thought the only major risk with collars was if your dog escaped it could possibly get caught and strangle them? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
persephone Posted November 7, 2013 Share Posted November 7, 2013 *sigh* the more we learn, the worse it gets .... like with humans ..everything can increase our chances of cancer .... I would be more than happy to source a large number of articles for you that will irrefutably prove that research causes cancer in rats... yes .. think that's a definite. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moosepup Posted November 7, 2013 Share Posted November 7, 2013 I very rarely use collars and my dogs don't wear them on a day to day basis but it's mostly aesthetic, I like a non rumpled neck. :D Moose does tend to gag a bit when walking in a collar, even when not pulling, so I only walk in harnesses. Poor article IMO and not well researched. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Maeby Fünke Posted November 7, 2013 Share Posted November 7, 2013 (edited) I thought the only major risk with collars was if your dog escaped it could possibly get caught and strangle them? Me too. Though I've heard that martingale collars are better than flat collars for Pugs because they apply an even pressure around the whole of the neck and not just at the front where the trachea is. eta I mean for training. My Pug wears a harness. Edited November 7, 2013 by Maeby Fünke Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alison03 Posted November 7, 2013 Share Posted November 7, 2013 I prefer using a collar, if the dog is trained right, they walk on a loose leash anyway, so there isn't much call for putting stress on the neck. I do have acquaintances who use harnesses because they think it's kinder, but they haven't got as much control over their dogs and indulge in a lot of dog skiing. One uses an extender leash and a harness, then asks me how I get my dog to walk at heel because her dog won't do it. : ( I do use a harness in the car as a safety restraint. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
korbin13 Posted November 7, 2013 Share Posted November 7, 2013 I use both a collar and a harness. Harness is for running on a longer type lead, it's easier for the dog to step out of and not get tangled up and I don't have to stop! Collar for normal every day walking. They will lunge if another dog has a go at them through a fence so I hope it doesn't damage their throats. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Esky the husky Posted November 7, 2013 Share Posted November 7, 2013 Know what else is harmful, ill fitting harnesses ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kanae Posted November 7, 2013 Share Posted November 7, 2013 Ok I had a bit of a better look at the blog now I am home, and one of my peeves (I love kikopups videos btw) is about the neck anatomy. This is a surprise to me as Kikopup is a proclaimed artist, and yet she did not provide relevant anatomical comparisons for this argument. If she had, the argument would have been rendered invalid regarding the neck density and strength being similar to a humans. I went ahead and pulled out some reference pictures I have of dog and human anatomy, as you can see in the images the human Trachea is exposed (we do have a very thin muscular veil that rests over this but that muscle is mostly for the skin to rest on), as we are a vertical species we have evolved with no real need for any muscle to be around this part of our neck, we do not lower or extend our head to require such muscles, we do not use our neck to eat or grab something to rip at. The dog however does and as such in the below pictures you can see much more layering of muscles that cover the Trachea giving the throat and neck more strength and durability to withstand daily life events. While our dna and some aspects of our body may relate to the dog, the argument that our anatomy matches is completely untrue and is not a relevant argument. If enough force was placed suddenly on the neck of a dog with a collar to cause a whiplash effect then yeah it will cause some type of damage, the extent however would depend on the breed of dog and how the muscles in said breed are developed, every breed of dog differs in muscle density and strength, as with bones. I think more studies and scientific analysis would be required before you could verify if it is cruel to use a collar, but if studies are being made I would prefer to see results of ALL current restraint methods used for dogs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lollipup Posted November 7, 2013 Share Posted November 7, 2013 I love some of Kikopup's stuff. But this article and some of her beliefs are a bit extreme. I went to her seminar and dogs weren't allowed to be worked on collars. Everyone had to have a harness. So I took my dog on a harness and had a spare harness too and spoke to her and she was saying how she hasn't found a perfect harness yet, they all cause discomfort around the shoulders or under the arms/front legs. They were testing all these harnesses and getting custom made ones for their dogs. She was a lovely person but it's just not practical. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
persephone Posted November 7, 2013 Share Posted November 7, 2013 Good find, kanae :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keasarge Posted November 7, 2013 Share Posted November 7, 2013 shrug anything can be harmful if used in the wrong way. I never leave collars on dogs and only use flat ones for walks. all training is done off lead. it was interesting reading though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Maeby Fünke Posted November 7, 2013 Share Posted November 7, 2013 Good find, kanae :) Yes, that was very interesting. Thank you :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Salukifan Posted November 7, 2013 Share Posted November 7, 2013 (edited) Usual story and it goes as well for dogs as it does for horses. It's not the tool that causes issues but the hands that operate it. I do believe that more complex methods of restraining/controlling a dog aren't necessarily any "kinder". And no gadget is a substitute for effective training. Gadgets aren't necessarily more effective. Honestly what level of control does anyone truly exercise over a giant breed in a harness? You won't see me walking any of my dogs in a harness or a headcollar anytime soon. Edited November 7, 2013 by Haredown Whippets Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kelpiecuddles Posted November 7, 2013 Share Posted November 7, 2013 Harnesses are extremely hard to fit on my basset hound, I've yet to find one that is comfortable on her, a flat collar on the other hand is comfortable and as she walks well and generally doesn't pull I don't see it causing her any harm. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nekhbet Posted November 7, 2013 Share Posted November 7, 2013 Right at the top of the neck of the dog it IS more sensitive - that is why methods like Cesar Milan and dominant dog collars work. When hiked up right under the chin they put pressure on the trachea, throat, thyroid and major blood vessels to the brain. You can cut the air off very quickly with one movement and it's still a way to deal with aggressive dogs that want to take your arm off or their targets. It's where the fallacy of the correction chain being a 'choke' collar comes from despite not being used for that reason. It's a method not advocated for the inexperienced as it can potentially cause harm in the dog. The point is to apply gentle, constant pressure until the dog stops it's aggressive response then release the pressure as a reward. Normal collars and correction chains are meant to be used at the base of the neck where there is heavy muscling and fat coverage. If you feel an adult dogs neck you will feel a good muscle layer, they're meant to have that area well built to be able to function (historically) in fighting, hunting, tearing up food etc. Smaller and 'novel' breeds shall we say (take that as far removed from their more wild counterparts) may very well require different equipment due to a now changed anatomy. Most smallies do not grow decent muscle in that area and hence have little cushioning against very small amounts of pressure. Also young puppies you do not allow to pull for the same reason. If you look at jobs like bitework there are two options - agitation collars which are very wide and thick, or agitation harnesses. Both are made to spread the pressure over the equipment and prevent long term injury from repetitive actions. As for agitation harnesses I think they're the best harness by far. Very well padded, thick, perfectly fitted to allow natural movement of the dog without any interference. I also prefer leather to synthetic materials in most of my equipment. As for spurs, don't get me started on that one. Jabbing and tearing an animals skin to make yourself feel like a hero, frothy mouthed, pulled in head dressage horses makes me mad. It's why I left dressage behind a long time ago, I couldn't stand what was acceptable to do to an animal in the name of glory. Cruelty is cruelty, in dogs, horses, etc. No fancy name will dress it up as anything else. I've seen some supposedly positive people more abusive towards their animals then those who correct their dogs instead. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OSoSwift Posted November 7, 2013 Share Posted November 7, 2013 As for spurs, don't get me started on that one. Jabbing and tearing an animals skin to make yourself feel like a hero, frothy mouthed, pulled in head dressage horses makes me mad. It's why I left dressage behind a long time ago, I couldn't stand what was acceptable to do to an animal in the name of glory Quite an interesting comment coming from you. I would have thought you would be quite so condeming of a whole area of anything. Not all dressage horses are frothy mouthed pulled in anything. Many are light, engaged and not forced. Spurs like anything can be used lightly with good judgment and very quiet legs for precision. Yes there are rednecks who rip horses sides up I have seen them myself, but not everyone. I have seen horses in true collection with no bit in their mouth, can't say they are jammed up. As I say, for someone who advocates it isn't the tool it is the person on the end of it, I am suprised. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kanae Posted November 7, 2013 Share Posted November 7, 2013 What Nekhbet said as well, my observation was focused at the base of the neck where normal collars would sit, but having a collar specifically placed near the base of the skull is a different story :) Of course the area closest to the jaw is the most exposed, as with all animals there is much thinner muscles and protection near the lower jaw as the muscle (Sternocephalicus) that covers the lower part of the neck splits to connect to the skull behind the ears, due to the length of a dogs neck compared to a humans the vulnerable area is therefore much shorter, but every warm blooded animal has this vulnerable spot. This is all getting really in-depth but if anyone is curious, a clearer view of just how many muscles protect the canine trachea can be viewed here (Warning: Dissection images, not for faint of heart) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Poodle wrangler Posted November 7, 2013 Author Share Posted November 7, 2013 Thanks. A collar hurting a dog e.g. If they lunge before well-trained on their leash wasn't something I'd heard of before, except for toy breeds. I left a harness on pup after using it in the car... For leash walking...seemed ok, just different. I like collar & leash only because easier and what I'm used to. Agree, custom harness is OTT. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alison03 Posted November 7, 2013 Share Posted November 7, 2013 Usual story and it goes as well for dogs as it does for horses. It's not the tool that causes issues but the hands that operate it. I do believe that more complex methods of restraining/controlling a dog aren't necessarily any "kinder". And no gadget is a substitute for effective training. Gadgets aren't necessarily more effective. Honestly what level of control does anyone truly exercise over a giant breed in a harness? You won't see me walking any of my dogs in a harness or a headcollar anytime soon. I see quite a few people walking their dogs in what they call a Halti, is that what you mean by a head collar? They are supposed to give more control, I've never examined one closely but they seem to have a strap that stops the dog opening it's mouth too wide, kind of like a muzzle I'm guessing. I wonder how comfortable they are to wear, no pressure on the throat but quite restrictive nevertheless. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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