angelsun Posted February 17, 2011 Share Posted February 17, 2011 Another topic got me thinking.....I've known of a stud dog owner that when she permits her male to be mated to a bitch, she includes a contract that states, that ONLY puppies kept by the owner of that bitch being mated, can be registered to be shown. All others MUST be sold on non breeding registrations or desexed prior to going to their new homes. There is another owner of a stud dog that wants the name of the stud dog incorporated into ALL offspring resulting from that mating. This gets thinking...first off....how much do you as a stud dog owner, feel you have the right to insist as part of the agreement to mate anothers bitch? and secondly, how much would you as the owner of the bitch, be willing to agree to, in order to mate your bitch to a certain stud dog? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lappiemum Posted February 17, 2011 Share Posted February 17, 2011 Another topic got me thinking.....I've known of a stud dog owner that when she permits her male to be mated to a bitch, she includes a contract that states, that ONLY puppies kept by the owner of that bitch being mated, can be registered to be shown. All others MUST be sold on non breeding registrations or desexed prior to going to their new homes. There is another owner of a stud dog that wants the name of the stud dog incorporated into ALL offspring resulting from that mating.This gets thinking...first off....how much do you as a stud dog owner, feel you have the right to insist as part of the agreement to mate anothers bitch? and secondly, how much would you as the owner of the bitch, be willing to agree to, in order to mate your bitch to a certain stud dog? I haven't yet had a stud agreement for my boy, but it would be a case by case basis, although I don't think I would insist on such an arrangement. As the owner of bitches, I wouldn't agree to the above restrictions & would look for another male - I'm not able to have a large number of dogs, and for me having others show my lines is the only way I can go in the short term. I have heard of other restrictions though - such as a say over who gets the puppies, and a cut of the sale of each puppy as well as a stud fee. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sandra777 Posted February 17, 2011 Share Posted February 17, 2011 (edited) I know of a number of people which have in the stud contract that only those owned (not even part owned) by the breeder can be on main register, the rest must be limited register. In a way I can understand it as they are allowing YOU to use the stud dog, not every tom dick or harry you might choose to sell a pup to, but on the other side of the coin, if they don't trust you enough to do the right thing by the pups you breed (eg put pet pups on limited register) then why are they allowing you to use the dog at all. As a stud dog owner I have on occasions put conditions like this on some bitches but not usually - but hardly anyone ever wants to use my dogs so it doesn't happen too often As for insisting the pups are (partially) named after the sire - you have got to be kidding! No way, that's crazy stuff. Edited February 17, 2011 by Sandra777 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MolassesLass Posted February 17, 2011 Share Posted February 17, 2011 I probably wouldn't be happy not being able to MR show quality pups but if the dog was really really what I wanted then I would do it and keep every show quality pup in my name. Incorporating the name I wouldn't mind depending on what the name is. Sometimes I think dog breeding involves too much people stuff. I expected it to be more co-operative and far less competitive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
becks Posted February 17, 2011 Share Posted February 17, 2011 The limit register thing wouldn't bother me as all pups have a breeding restriction put on them when registered (the difference here in the UK is that is can be lifted by the breeder at any time in the dogs life). I have my own theme for a litter, so wouldn't want to have the sires name as apart of the pups names, it;s a bit like having someone elses vanity plate on your car! lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andisa Posted February 17, 2011 Share Posted February 17, 2011 Depends on what is in the contract. I would agree to keeping only those to be shown registered to me and place the others in pet homes on limited rego and desex contract, but I would not agree to early desexing due to my personal beliefs that they need to mature before desexing. I would have to know exactly what else is in the small print including the future of the pups from that mating I keep - some breeders want control over them too. Then there is the list of breeders who are never to have access to some lines. Some just want too much control so it is better to walk away. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jed Posted February 17, 2011 Share Posted February 17, 2011 I used a dog in 2009. Condition was that I could keep a pup to show and breed with, all others had to be on LR, and as pets only. I had no problem with that. I used a dog under exactly the same conditions in about '85. I have no problem with that. In each case, there was no contract, just a verbal agreement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dogsfevr Posted February 17, 2011 Share Posted February 17, 2011 Considering how many people openly bad mouth some dogs & then try & buy from that breeding via the back door i have no issues with it . As far as naming well that would be a no deal unless the dog had something very special to offer that meant a bright future in our programme . All our pups are sold on spay contract & would have no issues with early desexing & for many breeds these days it is the safest option to ensure there future . We have certainly weeded out some owners who i have no doubt where agents buying for puppy farms/export Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SparkyTansy Posted February 17, 2011 Share Posted February 17, 2011 I would assess each condition in relation to the dog I was using to determine if it's reasonable or not... I know of a stud contract where not only are you only able to put dogs you keep on MR, but you are only allowed to keep a bitch to put on MR, no dogs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skyehaven Posted February 17, 2011 Share Posted February 17, 2011 (edited) As far as I'm concerned I have every right to restrict what happens with pups from my dogs, if they don't agree, happy for them not to use them. If they agree to the terms they better stick to it, or they will never get anything from me again, if I am in doubt they will stick to agreement I will not agree to let them be used. Might right Who uses MY DOGs! Letting them out to anyone (if they think they are a good breeder or not) is not doing the breed any favores. I have only let 2 people use my dogs and they have stuck to agreement, they both have pick puppy others are in loving pet homes on limited register. Edited February 17, 2011 by skyehaven Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rebanne Posted February 17, 2011 Share Posted February 17, 2011 I wouldn't agree to any of that. Was looking to get a pup from OS, there was going to be some breeding terms on him, but we never got that far as said pup turned out not to be suitable. I did have it in my mind what I would or wouldn't agree too and if the conditions were not to my liking I would have walked away. I'm importing semen instead, no strings attached, and will happily sell a pup to my competition, also no strings attached, as long as I am satisfied they are the right home. I am here for the breed not the personalities. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
angelsun Posted February 17, 2011 Author Share Posted February 17, 2011 Guess it's time for me to say how I would or have dealt with this situation. First scenario, only being permitted to have what I keep on the main...won't happen....my girls are half the equation and in many cases, other breeders have been waiting patiently for what THEY have to offer...they want HER half of the pedigree and are not as concerned about the sires side. This would mean that they would not be permitted to have a pup, simply because the sire has conditions on being used..to me, it means that the owner of the stud dog believes that ONLY the use of the stud dog matters, and what the bitch brings to the table, isn't important. I agree with the backdoor concern, however I continually ask myself...what right do I have to restrict the future of my breed, for the sake of my ego? Yes there are bitches I have turned down, simply because they (in my opinion) won't add anything to the future of my breed...yes there are people I have turned down because their ethics are shady and I don't want to associate myself or my dogs/prefix with them..however....I have not ever told anyone that has my lines that they may not sell to a certain individual or allow their stud dogs with my pedigree behind them, to be used on person X or Y. I do not have that right as a breeder or a mentor. I choose to think that if Breeder X or Y is that determined to get my pedigree (and who ever said it was mine anyway when you think about it?) and is willing to go to great lengths to do so...good for them...I take it as a compliment that they feel that what I have been doing in breeding is good enough to warrant someone else wanting a bit of it. As for adding the name..I agree, there is no way I would do it, and snorted to be honest when that bit was mentioned...I think my exact words were "you've got to be $%^&*ng kidding!" In my opinion, it was the sign of someone wanting glory and not willing to pay their dues. One thing I forgot to add in the original post, was stud owners determining where puppies are sold...I know that there are a lot out there that feel they have the right to dictate this....perhaps in some cases, it is warranted but should be not dictated, but more guided and mentored to help the breeder from making a mistake if they are new and don't know some of the problem people out there that have not been upfront or honest....I had one stud owner tell me this clause, after having at that point about 20 years breeding....needless to say, I told them to get stuffed...my litter, my owners...end of subject. We have a small gene pool...and one would think that as a result, breeders would be more willing to share and work together, however this isn't the case.....and now, I feel we don't have as small a gene pool as some would like others to believe....I've been handed a number of different scenarios regarding using stud dogs and as the owner of a number of stud dogs, am constantly amazed by what some owners believe is their right. But hey...if you get what you want....go for it....I'll find another dog....I have always included the stud owner, to be sure they know numbers, gender and if any pups do well in trials or shows...they get photos and information....but I know, the stud dog is only half the picture.....and my girls gave a lot (or more in some cases). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fifi Posted February 17, 2011 Share Posted February 17, 2011 I have no problem adhering to the strict conditions my dogs are under, and have the same conditions on any pups I breed. fifi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
angelsun Posted February 17, 2011 Author Share Posted February 17, 2011 How about this question/scenario..... You are a breeder and want to bring in another breed (as many do) because either you are winding down in your first breed or just want to experience something different. You fall in love with the breed of Great Northern Swimming Hounds and approach this breeder after doing some research and finding out that they health test, are big on making sure temperaments are dead on, and microchip and show/trial their GNSH's They are great folks...breed now and then, have lots of space to socialize pups and are fussy on who gets their pups because they want the best for them. You contact this breeder and express interest in getting a pup....give the breeder your history in dogs, which includes breeding and showing multi generations of champion Miniature Longcoated Herding Terriers and tell them that you want to show and trial anything that you might get from a breeder. Lets face it...you are a great home and would promote the kennel of the GNSH's. Your heart is set on this easy care breed and other breeders you have talked to, just don't have all the bits of the puzzle falling into place. But the GNSH breeder drops the bomb saying that because they chose to use Ch. I'm All That N Bag O Chips for the sire of a litter, they can't sell you anything on main register, so you can't show a pup or breed from it. They sympathize with you because they know you bred top quality MLHT's and would love to mentor you in the GNSH's but a contract is a contract. Of the twelve pups born four weeks ago, only one will be allowed to carry the torch for the GNSH breed. The breeder would keep more, but they are only allowed so many dogs according to council regulations, and they can't part with their two young bitches (one of which is the mother of the litter and the other is the first offspring out of her and only 17 months and too young to be bred from) The breeder is torn because there are actually two other really nice pups in the litter. Worthy of being shown and bred from down the track, but a contract is a contract, so they have to be desexed. You hang up the phone, very disappointed as after all your research to find your perfect breed and breeder, you hit a wall and won't be able to pursue it. You may be forced to go to a lesser breeder to fullfill your dream of owning and showing and perhaps breeding GNSH's or just give up and pick another breed. Although the breed names have been changed to protect this innocent, the story is based on truth. BTW...the breeder ended up stopping breeding GNSH's because eventually due to the contract that was signed which also included a clause about not being permitted to breed the offspring to anything produced by a kennel that didn't get along with the kennel of the stud dog owner, suddenly there wasn't much to breed to, due to limited availability of health clear, temperament good pedigree. So it wasn't just one breeder lost...it was two. Just tossing this out for folks to consider. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christina Posted February 17, 2011 Share Posted February 17, 2011 Another topic got me thinking.....I've known of a stud dog owner that when she permits her male to be mated to a bitch, she includes a contract that states, that ONLY puppies kept by the owner of that bitch being mated, can be registered to be shown. All others MUST be sold on non breeding registrations or desexed prior to going to their new homes. This is standard with cat breeding & no one has a problem with it at all. Minor difference being that desexed cats can & are regularly shown. So it means that only kittens kept by breeder are entire, all others sold are desexed before they leave. It protects breeders lines from ending up where they don't want them to be & is for the welfare of the cat. Yes it is restrictive but if people were more trustworthy, honest & ethical it wouldn't need doing. Too late when they end up in breeding hell. I have also bought stud cats to own & agreed to the same conditions. The name thing is a bit silly & egotistical Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whippets Posted February 17, 2011 Share Posted February 17, 2011 I have no issues with a stud condition to keep what I want myself on MR and LR the rest. Their dog, their rules. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oakway Posted February 17, 2011 Share Posted February 17, 2011 Firstly I have not stood a dog at stud for years but when I did it was so simple. You paid me a stud fee. You got to use the dog. If she didn't have pups you got a free return. End of story. Never had a problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
becks Posted February 17, 2011 Share Posted February 17, 2011 How about this question/scenario.....You are a breeder and want to bring in another breed (as many do) because either you are winding down in your first breed or just want to experience something different. You fall in love with the breed of Great Northern Swimming Hounds and approach this breeder after doing some research and finding out that they health test, are big on making sure temperaments are dead on, and microchip and show/trial their GNSH's They are great folks...breed now and then, have lots of space to socialize pups and are fussy on who gets their pups because they want the best for them. You contact this breeder and express interest in getting a pup....give the breeder your history in dogs, which includes breeding and showing multi generations of champion Miniature Longcoated Herding Terriers and tell them that you want to show and trial anything that you might get from a breeder. Lets face it...you are a great home and would promote the kennel of the GNSH's. Your heart is set on this easy care breed and other breeders you have talked to, just don't have all the bits of the puzzle falling into place. But the GNSH breeder drops the bomb saying that because they chose to use Ch. I'm All That N Bag O Chips for the sire of a litter, they can't sell you anything on main register, so you can't show a pup or breed from it. They sympathize with you because they know you bred top quality MLHT's and would love to mentor you in the GNSH's but a contract is a contract. Of the twelve pups born four weeks ago, only one will be allowed to carry the torch for the GNSH breed. The breeder would keep more, but they are only allowed so many dogs according to council regulations, and they can't part with their two young bitches (one of which is the mother of the litter and the other is the first offspring out of her and only 17 months and too young to be bred from) The breeder is torn because there are actually two other really nice pups in the litter. Worthy of being shown and bred from down the track, but a contract is a contract, so they have to be desexed. You hang up the phone, very disappointed as after all your research to find your perfect breed and breeder, you hit a wall and won't be able to pursue it. You may be forced to go to a lesser breeder to fullfill your dream of owning and showing and perhaps breeding GNSH's or just give up and pick another breed. Although the breed names have been changed to protect this innocent, the story is based on truth. BTW...the breeder ended up stopping breeding GNSH's because eventually due to the contract that was signed which also included a clause about not being permitted to breed the offspring to anything produced by a kennel that didn't get along with the kennel of the stud dog owner, suddenly there wasn't much to breed to, due to limited availability of health clear, temperament good pedigree. So it wasn't just one breeder lost...it was two. Just tossing this out for folks to consider. If I wanted that breed from that breeder I would stay in contact and wait for a pup at a later date or suggest a co-ownership of one of the older dogs. However, the breeder got themselves into a corner by agreeing to not use dogs on the puppy that the stud owner didn't agree to - just whos breeding program is it anyway?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
angelsun Posted February 17, 2011 Author Share Posted February 17, 2011 Becks, I agree...this being the meat of this situation....Again, I will stress that I am all for mentoring, but that doesn't mean DICTATING..... Oakway....yup....easy...no ego's involved. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lowenhart Posted February 18, 2011 Share Posted February 18, 2011 I won't use a stud dog where the stud dog owners dictate where and how the resulting pups are used. As a stud dog owner, I won't let my male be used by people if I don't like how they place their puppies. I help place puppies, but don't dictate who gets what. I can advise how they pups grow, but don't dictate what register they go into. I like to educate versus control. If you don't let people in the front door, they'll go around the back. I've refused to sell a person a pup but they got one by buying a pup from a male I bred. C'est la vie. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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