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sandgrubber

Hypothetical: Baby With Temperament Fault

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Lets say you have a largish litter of pups, say more than seven, and one puppy consistently shows signs of relating poorly to people. Eg, doesn't come running for attention with the others, won't make eye contact, and struggles when picked up. By eight weeks you are worried that the pup is not going to grow up being a dog you'd want to own: nor could you feel good about passing it on to someone else. What do you do? Cull? Sell at a discounted price with full disclosure of why?

(I was worried about one of my present litter going this way, but he's turned friendly....maybe just tummy aches or something...but it made me wonder what I would do if I ended up with a bad pup....and what others would do).

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megan_   

I am not a breeder, but if the faults were serious I would cull. I definitely wouldn't sell at a discounted price - a dog is either a suitable pet or not.

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If I was a breeder and this happened I would keep the puppy and see how it went as it grew. I would never just kill it on the off chance there might be issues.

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Guest donatella   
Guest donatella

I'm no breeder either but no way would I kill!! 8 weeks is still so young. My mum has a dog who was the pick of the litter, the most outgoing and as he grew up he turned out to be a bit of freak. He has been brought up around kids and dogs and in a loving home and the other 2 dogs are very outgoing and friendly he's just a a weirdo. I do believe you can mould them somewhat in the beginning and they do change through the teenage years. I don't think he should die just yet :(

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Rebanne   

I bought one of those pups, knowing what she was like. I put her down at 20 months old. Problem is those pups are often ok with the breeder, amongst their family. I was a fool to take her, I could see what she was like, but really didn't have any idea just how much it would impact on her quality of life. Based on my experience and the heartbreak we both went through, if I bred one like that and could see it, I would PTS.

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Clyde   

Lets say you have a largish litter of pups, say more than seven, and one puppy consistently shows signs of relating poorly to people. Eg, doesn't come running for attention with the others, won't make eye contact, and struggles when picked up. By eight weeks you are worried that the pup is not going to grow up being a dog you'd want to own: nor could you feel good about passing it on to someone else. What do you do? Cull? Sell at a discounted price with full disclosure of why?

(I was worried about one of my present litter going this way, but he's turned friendly....maybe just tummy aches or something...but it made me wonder what I would do if I ended up with a bad pup....and what others would do).

My Stafford Esme, did all this as a pup. She stood back from the litter, was very submissive and shut down when picked up. So much so that people would ask what was wrong with her and if she actually did anything at all! She has turned out to be an awesome dog. Something changed in her at about 5 or so months. She is still a nervy dog and very intense and needy, but she is now just so affectionate and just perfect for me. I chose her as she was the runt and I felt sorry for her. I wanted a gentle dog, training wise she is incredibly responsive as she is desperate to please. In the wrong home she would be a mess, absolutely crushed, but she is in the right home and everything I could have hoped for.

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Dogsfevr   

If PTS was the right option yes we would .

Its fine for people to say no way but as a breeder you are responsible for what you sell after all people are quick to judge the breeder if it goes pear shaped as to why they sold it when there was concerns in the first place

I have seen dogs sold via breeders,pet shops & rescue that should have been PTS but weren't because obviously people deemed otherwise & the nightmares these dogs are for there owners is very distressing .

We would get any pup assessed if we had concerns & if deemed by all parties there is an issue with an unknown outcome then yes we would PTS .

We have never had an issue but one must always be opened minded if it happens & weighing up the pros/cons the dogs interests would always come first over emotional people who in all reality wouldn't take the dog on themselves .

To PTS would be a severe case at 8 weeks we would run on & see if things changed when the rest of the litter left

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BC Crazy   

Lets say you have a largish litter of pups, say more than seven, and one puppy consistently shows signs of relating poorly to people. Eg, doesn't come running for attention with the others, won't make eye contact, and struggles when picked up. By eight weeks you are worried that the pup is not going to grow up being a dog you'd want to own: nor could you feel good about passing it on to someone else. What do you do? Cull? Sell at a discounted price with full disclosure of why?

(I was worried about one of my present litter going this way, but he's turned friendly....maybe just tummy aches or something...but it made me wonder what I would do if I ended up with a bad pup....and what others would do).

My Stafford Esme, did all this as a pup. She stood back from the litter, was very submissive and shut down when picked up. So much so that people would ask what was wrong with her and if she actually did anything at all! She has turned out to be an awesome dog. Something changed in her at about 5 or so months. She is still a nervy dog and very intense and needy, but she is now just so affectionate and just perfect for me. I chose her as she was the runt and I felt sorry for her. I wanted a gentle dog, training wise she is incredibly responsive as she is desperate to please. In the wrong home she would be a mess, absolutely crushed, but she is in the right home and everything I could have hoped for.

Totally agree with you Clyde. Pups can improve somewhat in the right hands. I think that in the right hands is KEY though. On the flip side to this, my girl showed no signs of being anxious/nervy etc as a yougster but from about

9 months old she became unsettled & her temp changed. She is a fantastic dog though like your Esme Clyde, she is also incredibly responsive & desperate to please. A very biddable little girl. And yes in the wrong home she too

would be an absolute mess. I shudder to think what she would become.

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I had a puppy in a litter of only 3 that was a little reserved but not so much that I would have considered putting her to sleep at that stage. She was sold at 9 weeks of age to a Delta trainer and 6 weeks later she was returned to me an absolute wreck. I spent hours with a trainer trying to bring her around but every little thing was a trauma to her. Eventually at 16 months she was PTS.

Many pups in a litter are a little reserved but often in a one only or a new home where they have more individual attention they grow to be normal dogs.

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Temperament issues, especially anxiety that manifests in severe separation anxiety, reactivity and nervous problems can be as much or more of an impost on a puppy owner than a dog who has a bad parrot mouth or some other issue that people would PTS for without question. It's with you every day, with the weather forecast (are we getting storms), on walks (will they go batshit at the car/bike/other dog), when you want to go out (are they going to shred up the carpet or rip out their teeth/claws on the doorframe in terror) - and if you take them with you will they cope in the car?

Sure, it's not all going to be that dire, and to an extent it can be managed with training and socialisation, but the difference between an easy dog with solid temperament and one with hard-wired issues is a major difference. It affects so many things that owners can and cannot do. It's also a reason why dogs bounce out of homes into the unwanted dog streams. Finally, it's crap for the dog too - imagine what it must be like to live with that kind of anxiety and/or stress?

So I would never criticise someone for electing to PTS for temperament. Better to do it young and before the pup is in someone's home to become a source of heartbreak for them as well.

Edited by SkySoaringMagpie

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Scratch   

Cull is not a dirty word.

In the old days puppies were culled, often ruthlessly, and I believe overall we had more stable dogs.

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Lhok   

Temperament issues, especially anxiety that manifests in severe separation anxiety, reactivity and nervous problems can be as much or more of an impost on a puppy owner than a dog who has a bad parrot mouth or some other issue that people would PTS for without question. It's with you every day, with the weather forecast (are we getting storms), on walks (will they go batshit at the car/bike/other dog), when you want to go out (are they going to shred up the carpet or rip out their teeth/claws on the doorframe in terror) - and if you take them with you will they cope in the car?

Sure, it's not all going to be that dire, and to an extent it can be managed with training and socialisation, but the difference between an easy dog with solid temperament and one with hard-wired issues is a major difference. It affects so many things that owners can and cannot do. It's also a reason why dogs bounce out of homes into the unwanted dog streams. Finally, it's crap for the dog too - imagine what it must be like to live with that kind of anxiety and/or stress?

So I would never criticise someone for electing to PTS for temperament. Better to do it young and before the pup is in someone's home to become a source of heartbreak for them as well.

The bit in the bolded is what my Lab x Kelpie Mischief was like, it was very hard on us all. No amount of training or socilisation brought her around so we use to have to pick our times for walking on the beach and make sure no one else was at the Vet clinic in case something happened. I also forked out a lot of money in repairs to the things she damaged and also in vet bills. We bought her from a shelter where she was most likely put there due to the things she did.

Miss despite all this was still an awesome dog and I loved her very much but if she hadn't of come to our place she would have ended up PTS at a young age and although she taught me a lot and I don't really ever want to go through all the heartache (of coming home and she had broken through the fence and ran off, and myself not knowing where she was and hoping like hell I can find her before she gets killed) and most importantly is the toll it takes on the dog and having to sit there and know that there is nothing you can do for them.

PTS is an option I would do at a young age if they looked to have a temperament that would cause problems and I was unable to look after them myself.

--Lhok

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Andisa   

Cull is not a dirty word.

In the old days puppies were culled, often ruthlessly, and I believe overall we had more stable dogs.

^^^ this..

Breeders who took responsibility and culled were often called names for doing so - how ever looking around at many different breeds it's become pretty clear culling was for the best.

Don't think for one minute any breeder gets enjoyment out of culling a puppy they have invested so much in to - respect to those who have or do.

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I wouldn't cull the for the temperament issues mentioned as those things often improve dramatically when the puppy is away from it's siblings. I have kept puppies when they have temperaments that need special attention and they have turned out fine with me. It is just a matter of having the right home for them to go to or keeping them, depending on what the issue is. All dogs have temperaments that suit different situations. The quiet, submissive ones need a home where they will be carefully encouraged, the bossy dominant type need a very experienced owner who can use those traits to best advantage in a workign environment. Family pets with kids need to be easy going and fairly tough and resilient but that doesn't mean they have the best temperament in the litter, just the best temperament for that situation. Get the home and temperament combination wrong and it will be a disaster.

The only thing I would cull for is extreme aggression. I have seen it in a litter of crossbred puppies where the sire, a very nasty crossbred terrier, jumped a 7'fence to mate the bitch who had already been mated by the dog of choice. They allowed the pregnancy to continue and DNA tested the puppies but by 4-5 weeks it was very obvious that they were all by the crossbred dog. The normally devoted dam of the litter would not go near them by then. If you picked them up they growled, snarled and snapped and they spent all day fighting visiously with each other. There was nothing friendly or normal about them at all and after consultation with a very experienced trainer the whole litter was pts. So yes dogs can be born with really bad, aggressive temperament and the responsible thing to do is to cull them.

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Whenever we get a litter .. there are sometimes those who never make it ..To keep/pass on a dog with fear/anxiety, or aggression/bullying probs is irresponsible , and I will not do it.

It used to be done so much more -yes- In a previous life we had as a client a gundog breeder - who always had the most gorgeous fat, calm and confident puppies ..and whose dogs were used as they should be ,and were sought after .

It wasn't for quite some time that I learned he was a ruthless culler; for a short time I was appalled - but then realised all his pups we saw/vaccinated /etc were just the best ! :)

Same with a BYB'er of fluffies ... his pups were always brilliant temperaments and healthy , for the same reason . he only kept what he thought were the best.

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Nekhbet   
Lets say you have a largish litter of pups, say more than seven, and one puppy consistently shows signs of relating poorly to people. Eg, doesn't come running for attention with the others, won't make eye contact, and struggles when picked up.

Depends on the overall traits of the dog. That doesn't sound like the end of the world, and like you mentioned it could be illness, pain, etc causing it. A pup that is OTT with fear, aggression, etc is a different kettle of fish and IMO should be culled out.

Cull is not a dirty word.

In the old days puppies were culled, often ruthlessly, and I believe overall we had more stable dogs.

Of course, because you prevented bad temperaments from being released into the public and from potentially breeding and spreading bad temps. We're too soft, in fact I see we're favouring the bad temperament/physicality sometimes which I find ridiculous.

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Angeluca   

Sometimes a pups which is the bottom of the pack appears withdrawn

Some pups don't like getting held,

The eye contact is usually a submission thing.

My breed golden retrievers being as friendly as is it arguably one of the most human focused and affectionate breeds (this going by a breed generalization) , if i had seen these sorts of signs I would, first would be a vet visit to rule out a few basics, separated them with either another calm pup or 2 or another kind well mannered adult for a few days(provided the pup had been weaned), visit with the pup on a one on one basis offer treats (soft cooked chicken breast) and if eye contact was a problem i'd show the pup the treat and bring the treat to my nose and things like this, the signs might just be the slightest but any sort of improvement would be good, then they would go to a quiet home but probably at 12 or 16 weeks after I had taken them to preschool and outer sorts of outings unless i trusted the home.

If the pup proved unresponsive even in a quieter environment with the treat association i would probably cull as it goes against every temperament associated with the breed and would have an underlying problem. Goldens are publicly known for friendliness, children and parents seem a lot more inclined to think of it as an approachable breed, It would be a very high risk of a child getting bitten by a golden with a very bad temperament then a bull breed based on looks. A half intelligent child sees a Rotty of staffy in a back yard they may think twice about getting their ball (regardless of whether they should enter someone else's yard without permission), they see a golden they would probably assume it would be safe.

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Lets say you have a largish litter of pups, say more than seven, and one puppy consistently shows signs of relating poorly to people. Eg, doesn't come running for attention with the others, won't make eye contact, and struggles when picked up. By eight weeks you are worried that the pup is not going to grow up being a dog you'd want to own: nor could you feel good about passing it on to someone else. What do you do? Cull? Sell at a discounted price with full disclosure of why?

(I was worried about one of my present litter going this way, but he's turned friendly....maybe just tummy aches or something...but it made me wonder what I would do if I ended up with a bad pup....and what others would do).

I had one in my last litter that basically screamed at me from day dot when picked up, he was not social, you could not stack him when all the others were little pro's at it, he shit his pants and buggered off when the strangers came into the yard.

That puppy in my eyes, although stunning was not staying at my house and I'd seriously thought that he wouldn't really even make a half decent pet.

Long story short, I rehomed two of his sisters, and came home for a day trip with him and my husband thought I had a different dog. Turns out his sisters were dominating him to the point of him not being able to function as a happy normal puppy.

I'm not going to be so quick to judge in future.

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(giving the pup enough time to develop properly) I think that culling isn't a bad idea at all. Culling was much more common back in the day and people weren't half as lenient with unacceptable behaviours and I honestly think that the quality of dogs has suffered in recent years due to trying to save and work with dogs that are genetically messed up. I'm not talking so much about pedigree breeders as I am about breeding dogs generally.

Edited by mixeduppup

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